Infertility and Feeling Unseen

The sad reality is that when you go through infertility, you can feel unseen. Here is what that is like. 

In this episode Jesse and Doug talk about why people struggle to talk about the pain of infertility with those who are going through it. 

Why can't our friends and family understand how hard this is? Why do I feel so unseen by so many people in my life?

We look at the conundrum that we find ourselves in. We need people to see us and understand what this is like. But, who is going to tell them? Who is going to show people how to care for us? Do we (the people suffering) have to teach them! Ugh, we are already going through enough. 

We give 3 ways out of this conundrum for people suffering from infertility. 

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❤️ This podcast is produced by Uniquely Knitted.
Uniquely Knitted exists to transform the experience of infertility. Our mission is to heal the traumas of infertility, miscarriage, and loss, and to end the isolation that comes with struggling to conceive. We achieve this by providing innovative, evidence-based preventative mental health support to those fighting to grow their families.

Discover more at https://www.uniquelyknitted.org/

Transcript

0:00

Do you have any fashion faux pas that you just lean into that you're like, don't care. It's a fashion faux pas. Male pattern baldness. Just lean in. You know? At least you have hair on your face. Thank God. At least as if it would be so bad to not have. No, I like your hair. That you don't have. That you don't have. No, mine is the Devil Wears Product 2. Just movie just came out. Yes. And so Emily Blunt and all these things and all these people talking about fashion is all over my Instagram. I literally feel like I've already watched the movie. I'm like, I don't need to see this movie. I've already seen it. Right. And they they talk about in one of the reels that they are being interviewed, one of the reels, one of the interviews that they're being interviewed. Is that how you say that? They talk about the biggest fashion phobas. Okay. I am. What's what's your fashion phoba? I am one of them. What is it? Oh yes. Crocs. How you lovingly call this, if you're watching, um a w a thing of cheese. A thing of cheddar cheese. A block of cheddar. A block of cheddar. Jesse wears these platforms. Massive crocs. Platform crocs that are the color of a brick of cheddar cheese. The color of the brick of the cheddar cheese. Right there. And I just lean in. And then Ann Hathaway said, the other one is loungewear. Like, as in like loungewear to like things. I was like, oh my God, I am, I am. That is who I am. I am a faux pas. You are loungewear with cheddar cheese crocs. Or like, wait, what'd you say? Athletic wear. I was like, that's all I am. I am crocs on the feet, athletic wear on the body. I am all a fashion profile. Faux pas, not profile. I feel like that's the most like fashion-privileged thing to say ever, though. Like, oh, it's just you shouldn't wear athletic wear. It's like, well, yeah, it would be awesome if I had like the most expensive clothes ever. The crochet top that you're currently wearing from Chanel for $2,000. But they do get a lot for free. Anyway, today on the podcast, we're gonna talk about something that I feel like is universally felt by everyone that struggles with infertility. I don't know why I'm doing this, but it's important that you get what I'm saying. Universally like there's some things where it's like some people don't really struggle with a lot of guilt or feelings, or they don't struggle with feeling like they're a failure, but some really, really, really do. But I feel like this feeling unseen is a universal feeling that everybody feels when you're struggling with infertility. Yeah. I just said that. We try not to say always statements, but it is kind of an always statement. I think that ever most, most, most people feel unseen when they're struggling with infertility. Yeah. I don't know if I've met anyone who feels massively seen. Visible. You mean like maybe people know about it, but they're like, oh, I don't, I don't feel seen by people. Like I feel like people miss what I'm going through. Or seen enough. And they miss the breadth of it, if that makes sense. Like they miss the emotional, the, the, how much it's impacting their life. They don't feel seen in that way. Right. Which is like a it is kind of a universal. I feel like most people feel completely unseen. And I also think that it is one of the sneaky hardest things about infertility is how unseen you feel. That unseeness, I think, leads to all sorts of things like isolation, anxiety, stress, anger towards like the people in your life, anger towards like the systems in your life. Yes. You know, like someone gets a break at work for something, but then you're going through fertility treatments and they're like, well, no, you can't take any time off. Like stuff like that. Like you just don't feel seen. Like this, I don't feel like this is taken in as important. It's not real. Right. People just look past it. That's what we're talking about. And and a little bit, I think too, it is embarrassing for some people. So it's almost this like tug of war of like, I want to be seen because I'm in pain and I don't want to fake it around my people. But I also am like, I almost like this is kind of embarrassing to admit. And almost I don't want to be in the limelight for like it's just like I feel like it's like this tug of war even within yourself. You know what I mean? But I think the main thing that you feel is, especially if you've been in this journey for some months, some years, it's like, I just now want to be seen. Like I'm going through so much pain. Like I am depressed. Um, one somebody said in our groups one time, they said, I love your process groups because I can take my mask off. And I was like, that is really powerful. Like that is really powerful. Like I think that a lot of times in infertility, we wear this mask and we are inside depressed, isolated, anxious, you know, and we're desperate to have someone see us in that or understand, understand what we're going through. We're gonna get into all of that, but I want to start with a certain spot, which is what does it feel like to be unseen? For you, what does it feel like to be unseen in your infertility? What are people not seeing, and what does it feel when they don't see that? You feel invisible even if you're around people. You feel like you have to be fake. I'm so excited that you just gave birth on my birthday and Mother's Day at the same time. A deep sense of alone, a deep sense of feeling like you are on an island and no one's there, and nobody gets it. But you're on this island with people. So you're on this island with people, but nobody understands, and it's just painful. It's painful, it's painful to feel unseen. It feels at the same time you want to scream of how you're feeling, but you're also so exhausted from feeling this way. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you're so exhausted from experiencing the infertility journey, but you almost want to scream of like, I'm alone and feeling alone, and how could you not get this? Feels so obvious. I feel like it was so obvious of what to for the other person, actually, to like know what to say, like I'm struggling or whatever. Yeah. And it just leaves you feeling alone. It really just makes you feel alone. Did you get angry? Did you get sad? Was it anxiety provoking? I think it was anxiety provoking socially. Socially, it was anxiety provoking to go to a party with kids or go to a birthday party or and everyone knows, but no one wants to say anything. Everyone knows or doesn't know. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. If they know, yes, you feel like everyone's looking at me, everyone's thinking that like, oh my gosh, I'm the one that didn't have kids. And if they didn't know, you kind of also feel the same way. You know what I mean? Like, oh, everyone's looking at me. I I feel so odd man out. Are they gonna ask me? Are they gonna ask me if I'm struggling? Are they gonna ask me when I'm gonna have kids? You know, stuff like that. So, but I think I just felt angry and anxious. I think unseen made me feel not necessarily sad. Sad came later. Initially, it was anger of like for not being seen. I feel like mine was like how unfair my life is, genuinely. Of like, this is so unfair. Like everyone else gets this thing, and I don't get it. And you don't feel like people saw that reality. I have to work harder in my relationships, going to social events in my life, spend more money than you do. So I was angry that I didn't feel like I fit into the classic mold. And then it made me feel anxious. Anxious of like, what are people gonna say? I'm at this baby shower, I'm like scooping pasta salad on my bowl, and then aunt whatever comes up to me and says, When are you gonna have it? Like it's just like so. I just walked around feeling, feeling anxious and angry, angry that it was happening to me. Yeah, angry that I was isolated and that infertility made me isolated. I think when you carry a hidden weight for a long period of time, it the reality for you is so painful that if someone doesn't immediately validate your experience of this weight that you've been carrying, it almost feels like screw you. Like, how could you not say something? The weird thing about infertility is sometimes they don't even know. They don't even know. But the feeling I think is there. Yeah. Or maybe they do know. Maybe you like, well, I said it, I said something and they do know, but they don't want to talk about it. Because they think you don't want to talk about it. And then I'm carrying this like massive weight of all this like pain and and sadness and month after month of trying, and you're not gonna say anything. We're just gonna sit here. How do you not see what I've been through? Or maybe even like worse, they act like you're fine, or weren't you guys trying? And you're like, what? How could you not? So I think that I think I think that leads to anger. Totally. I think it's toxic positivity. It's like more toxic hope. It's gonna happen. You know what I mean? It only takes one their story of how they had kids or whatever, or their neighbor that they don't really know's cousin that they don't speak to anymore. That's what they did. You know what I mean? Right, right. So I feel like yeah, it's it's really, really, really hard because you can even talk about it and start to speak about it, and start to let people in, and then you feel unseen again. So you're living in the unseen. I feel unseen, nobody knows what we're going through, da da-da. Then you could start to talk about it, then you get toxic positivity or advice that you don't want, or you sh it'll only happen, it's gonna happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then you feel unseen again. It's almost like a double-edged sword. Right. Is that what that is? Uh I don't know. You're a swordsman, aren't you a swordsman? What about for you, Doug? What did unseen make you feel? Totally different. Totally different. As one does in a relationship. I would say, well, I think it made me angry for sure, but it all I think it made me feel actually more in just invisible, which made me feel anxious and sad, actually. Actually, you know more sad than angry. Um feeling like if this was anything else, we would talk about it. But it's making you uncomfortable. And now you don't really want to talk about it. So I will put you at ease to make you feel more comfortable. And then that led to like an anxiety of going out and and talking about pregnancy and getting birth, you know, giving getting pregnant, all that kind of stuff. I just felt like for me, I felt like I know that you know about this. You don't want to talk about it. So I'll make a joke about it so that you don't make a joke about it and hurt my feelings before. You mean like that's sort of like mental gymnastics of trying to like figure out I don't feel seen by you. Like, I don't feel seen. It usually was by like not necessarily a person, it was by uh a group of people. Does that make sense? Yeah. Maybe like this group that we're going to, this event that we're gonna be at, everyone knows what I'm going through, but they don't want to say anything. And that makes me frustrated. So I'll say something. I'm I'm worried that they are gonna say something. And all of that mental gymnastics just made me feel, I just made me feel anxious. Right. And then sad. Sad that like if it were any other ailment, it would be it would be able to be talked about. Yeah. Yeah. Which I feel like that's a there's a uh very specific pain with infertility, is that well, can I tell you why I think this happens? Yes. I think it happens because infertility is very sad. Like like uh, I think there's a there there's thresholds that we feel comfortable talking about. There's good positive things, those easily pass the bar for like wanting to talk about. You won the lottery. Not that of course people would talk about that. I was gonna say um like one in a million billion people have said that, but okay. More like, I saw on LinkedIn that you got that job. That's awesome. Like, tell me about it. How are you feeling? Or um, or like you gave birth. And I like that's so I saw you post the pictures about a new house. You bought a new house, or oh my god, a dog. You guys went to Coachella, like how was it? Tell me the story or something like I don't know. Who are you hanging out? I don't know. No one, no one I know went to Coachella. I just want you, I just want everyone on the internet to know that. Uh if you did, tell me how how was it? Yeah, love to hear about it. Did you stay up so late? I heard that you stay up so late. And I did you stay hydrated and did you wear sunscreen? And what were the bathroom situations like? Yes, yes. And how long when it was over, did it take you to get to your car? I've heard that that's killer. Yes. And then from your car, how long did it take you to get out of the parking lot? And then once you're out of the parking lot, how long did it take you to get to your hotel? We are a thousand years old. We are we are 500 years old. I know, I know. Anyways, there are there are things that I think people feel comfortable talking about. I saw this thing that you did this thing. And then I think people hear about things that are so sad that they don't want to talk about them. Maybe one caveat is drama, you know? People love to talk about drama, and it could be sad, but if it's drama, like I heard what's his name got fired. Tell me about it. You know what I mean? Right, right. And that's sad. It's sad that someone got fired. I'd love to hear about what's his name got fired. Or I heard that that thing happened at church, you know what I mean? And oh my gosh, what happened? And it and those those are difficult, hard things. I'll be praying for her. But they like fall into the entire story. They fall into the drama category, you know? Yeah. I think infertility is just tragic. Infertility is so sad that there's no drama to it, there's no good to it. It's just, oh, that's horrible. Oh, I hate I hate to hear that. And we as people, that makes us feel uncomfortable. That sadness, that the fact that that could happen to someone, that someone could go through infertility, it's just bums us out. I think it bums everyone out. Obviously, it bums the people out who are going through it the most. Right. But even one, two steps removed, you know, if your sister's going through it, if your coworkers are going through it, you're like, oh, that it makes me so sad. I I hate talking about it. I'm sure you hate talking about it. Why would I want to bring up the saddest thing ever and like ask how you're doing? I'm sure you're sad. So I'll avoid it. But I think that avoiding it is where all of the unseen lives, you know? It just makes people uncomfortable. They're uncomfortable with it. So they talk about anything else but that, you know? Maybe they'll acknowledge it. How's it been going? And you're like, it's really tough. And they're like, okay. And that's maybe when they say something that's totally like a platitude, like, you know, good things come to those who wait. Yeah. But they're just uncomfortable. And they're just trying to make it go away because they don't want to sit with those bad feelings either. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think I felt that dynamic within people, and that made me sad and uncomfortable and anxious. Like, I know that you know what's going on in my life, and I know that you know that I know that you know that you're uncomfortable. That you're uncomfortable, and then there's just this like air in the room of like, I don't want to talk about that thing that you're probably thinking about. And all of it is subconscious, and all of it just makes it so that you don't feel seen. It's like wearing bright neon clothing and no one says anything. Like that was weird. I do that all the time. What do you mean you mean? It's like wearing giant cheddar cheese crocs and no one says anything. You would come home. Now their nicknames are gonna be cheddar cheese crocs. You would come home and think to yourself, that was weird. No one said anything about something that's so clearly obvious, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I think that over time makes you really feel invisible. You start to feel like, am I disappearing? I'm invisible. No one wants to talk about this. Right. That make it makes me sad and anxious. All that to say it makes me sad and anxious. That's interesting that yours came out sad and mine came out angry. I think my sadness came way later. And I wasn't as necessarily, I think your way of actually dealing with it, of being mad at people, is actually more common. Mine was still annoyed, but I but I'm like, I'm like the classic, like giving people the benefit of the doubt of like they don't know and they don't know what to say, and they can just hurt me and I won't say anything. Mine is more unfair that I have to even deal with this at all. I was just pissed that it's like, I hate that I'm at this birthday party and I'm the one who can't have kids. I hate that infertility brought me here. I would be so, I'm, I was so much more as the injustice of it happening to me than like an aunt coming up to me and being like, when are you gonna have kids? I could, I could almost somehow justify that as ignorance. And plus I was a hairdresser at the time, so you know, seven to eight times a day, I got people saying like the most stupidest stuff. So I think I I think I grew a little bit of a thicker skin towards that. Mine was I hate that I have to be in this situation. This is such an injustice. This is so unfair that I have to go to this birthday party and I don't have kids, and all these people do. I hate that I feel unseen. I hate that. Yes. So I think we're unseen for multiple reasons. I think for me, it was like I know these people know and they're not wanting to talk about it. That made me feel invisible. Yeah. I also think what you're saying is Can I just say something? What thinking about you back in that time. Yeah. I feel like thinking about you being unseen, I feel like, and this could be completely off what you just said, but I feel like you uh almost overtly, obsessively talked about it. Probably, yeah. Like almost like that's the anxiousness. So I think you probably did feel that that person was uncomfortable, but you're like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna fill in all the gaps so you don't have to, and you don't have to ask me, and I'm doing okay, and it's fine. And then like I almost felt like you were like almost like overly communicated because you're like, I will be seen, I will be seen. You have to see me, you have to see me, but don't ask me, I'll I'll fill you in first. I probably did the same thing. Yeah, it's what's weird though, is I wasn't worried, it was more about me. It was more like I don't want to be in an uncomfortable situation, so I'll cut it off and talk about it because I wanna get I want to get rid of the awkwardness of feeling unseen and feeling invisible. But I think there are times where we know that people know and we try to that stresses us out. I also think that there are people, and many times going through infertility, no one knows. No one knows, and you have that hidden weight, and you're just like bearing this massive burden of struggling to get pregnant, and maybe one or two people know. And then this introduces another which thing that I was gonna talk about was people inadvertently say the most unsensitive things. Unsensitive, yes, unsensitive things. Insensitive things, insensitive, insensitive, like wouldn't that be not sensitive? Insensitive things about pregnancy all the time, you know? Like maybe you're hanging out with someone and yeah, you're struggling, and then it's like that one couple that has somehow has like five kids all under five or something like that, and they're like, Oh yeah, you can have some of mine, you know, like oh gosh, uh, we're giving away kids. We we we have too many. And you're like, how do you not think? How do you not even see that that one? If they do know, I mean my heart stab. Two, if if they don't know, like how would you just say something so insensitive like that? You know, right, right. I think there's and and I'm like, this is completely sidebar or whatever, but like also think about it when you say that in front of a kid. Kind of a horrible thing to say. It's kind of a horrible thing to say just in general. Yeah. You know what I mean? But all of that I think adds to feeling completely unseen. And then I think don't think you can even do a podcast like this without saying that in our history, the medical community has at times totally missed so much of the fertility stuff, you know. Right, right. People have just missed endometriosis diagnosis. Yes. Um all sorts of things like that. You know, you go in and you're like, well, I've been trying, and they're like, well, I'm gonna try for another year. Right. And you know, people will get halfway down the fertility story and no one will ever do a sperm test. Like it just, I think there's a lot of times where we feel not only missed by the people in our lives, but the systems in our lives. Yes, the systems in within fertility, maybe. Yeah. Not always, but yeah. Like I always remember when I've probably told this story before, but when like my primary care doctor was like, hey, just so you know, the fertility diagnosis, you know, comes with raised depression rates, and you know, it can be as Hard as your spouse dying. So make sure to get that checked out. Like that's a massive bomb to drop on me. And then just say, like, yeah, make, don't forget that, you know, you're going to be horribly depressed. Like, what? Right. Is that what you're saying? Watch out. Is that what you're saying? Like, should you maybe focus a little more on that and not just like, you know, that I should redo my sperm test? Right. So I think all of it just leads us to feeling invisible. Yeah. Yeah. Unseen. Unseen by our communities. People in our, which this is just a touch on the medical thing, of like a lot of people in our groups like become advocates for themselves, of just like having to be advocates. And I think that that comes from being unseen. You're not seeing me. You're not seeing me. I am not just a number. I am not just this. Like, see me, see me, see me. And I say the same thing because we always reflect back after someone shares. And I always say the same thing of like, I'm so proud of you for being an advocate, but I'm also so sorry that you've had to be one. Right. You know what I mean? Like, but I think I think that advocacy in a medical system is from just not being seen and feeling like you are a number or feeling like, can't we have more research for this crap? Yeah. You know what I mean? Story for another time. Cheddar cheese corruption. Is there anything else? Is there anything else we're missing when it comes to being feeling unseen? You feel invisible. Like people don't really get it. Like they get it, but they don't get it. Yeah. You know, like they know you're they know that you were waiting to figure out if IVF you know, how many embryos you got. Right. And then you tell them you got none. And they go, oh shoot. So what's next? Right. And you're like, you don't get it. A mourning period. That's what's next. A tour, a grief tour? A small grief tour of the United States. France and grieving. So I think it's there's that. Like they don't under they don't truly see how hard it is. Yeah. It makes me think of this one story that I heard in one of our um process groups. And it was someone who had a really traumatic car crash. They were in a really traumatic car crash when they were like in their teens. And just how family just family, family of friends, like just rallied. Yeah. Rallied. She ended up being okay. But it's like just rallied. She remembered that feeling even as a teenager of like, wow, people step up. When hard shit happens, people step up to the plate. Yeah. Years later, gets married, has a miscarriage, crickets. Yeah, no one. And she could not get over that. She just could not get over where it's like, wait, wait, wait. I thought when hard stuff happens, people step up. Right. And that day I feel like she realized of like conditionally. Yeah. Depending on the conditions, people step up. Depending on the conditions, people know what to say and know what to do. And almost it feels like pain is conditional. Like, oh, that's so like worthy of traumatic car accident, worthy of getting care. And then this is like, is it that sad? Yeah, it's like that's something like that. Oh my gosh. I think it is so sad that people go, I don't know what to say, or I won't say anything. You know, like, oh, that's so touchy, I won't say anything. Like I like those thresholds. Like there are some things that people can deal with that are sad. A car crash, right? Um, you know, an accident or something. There's the good things, there's the drama things. People know how to chime in and step in. And then something is so sad of like, I lost the baby. Everyone goes, oh frick. And they just kind of fall silent. Right. That's not the time to fall silent. Right. That's the time to say, to know what to say. Right. But it feels like no one knows what to say or they're uncomfortable with themselves. They don't know what to say, they don't, they don't want to do it. It's just sad. I think that people can step up to the plate when they can cognitively under, I don't know. I don't know if it's that they can relate somehow or something, or infertility is like not something you can like put your hands on. It's feels more people like ambiguous or something. Like, oh, you had a miscarriage, but we didn't see you pregnant, we didn't see it, whatever. That it's like, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I and it's, I don't know. And I think people just want infertility to go away. I think that is a universal truth of the world. Yeah. Is the people that are experiencing it really want it to go away. But also I think the world as a whole, because I don't think we know how to clearly we don't know how to care for someone. It feels like one of those conditions. Like we, the world steps up, people step up for this, these things, but not this over here. We don't know how. We don't know how, or we don't want to, or it's hard because you don't know if it's gonna work out. And what's also hard, dude, this is a new thought. A lot of people, when they struggle with infertility, end up getting pregnant, which is great. Right. And amazing. We were not one of them, which is great and amazing, but I think people love that. They're like, see, see, well, that's the thing it does work out. That's the thing they want to share. Because that's the thing they want to share. It's painful and uncomfortable. And as people, we avoid painful, uncomfortable things. You know, there's a threshold that we have of, you know, oh, I didn't make varsity. Oh, that's painful and uncomfortable, but you'll make it through. Right. But something like a miscarriage, something like years of infertility is so painful, so uncomfortable. The best thing we have to offer is like, well, it'll happen someday. Aunt Mary got pregnant and she she struggled for a little bit too. And you're like, what? Okay, that doesn't help me at all. But they're like, How do I get you? How do I get out of this situation? How do you get out of this situation so that we can talk about anything else besides this situation? Yeah. This is making me uncomfortable. It's too sad. How do we find the exits immediately? You know? Yes, yes. That's what I think people are doing. Yes. That's why so many people going through it feel completely invisible. Yes. And when someone does end up getting pregnant, the people that are left that don't end up getting pregnant, hello. That makes them feel very unseen. The most unseen. Yeah. The most unseen. Oh, I didn't fit into your silver lining. Oh, I mean, I've even seen people have like massive body relief when someone at struggles with infertility journey that gets pregnant, which is great. Yeah. That is awesome. That's what everyone in this world is trying to do. Yeah. They're trying to get pregnant. Like, you know, so it's like there's such relief, but it's almost like, what if you are not the story that gives people relief? Yeah. That just makes you feel so unseen and less than. Less than. Do you want to go one level deeper before we move on? Sure. I really want to share this quote that someone said in one of my process groups, but it has really nothing to do with what we're saying, but I just like it. Why don't you just share it? Just what is it? We were talking about faith. And we were talking about how in faith journeys you feel like if you're in a faith community or journey, faith journey, faith community, and you don't get pregnant, that you feel like you're like less holy. And I just love what this one person said. They said, Do you think Mother Teresa was less holy because she didn't have kids? Right. The old Mother Teresa. I just felt like someone needed to know that. Or or that Mother Teresa was less than because she didn't have kids, or her life didn't have meaning because she didn't have kids. Yes. And I'm not saying we have to be like Mother Teresa and go and like change the world and be whatever this saint. I'm just saying, like, did did her not having kids affect any of her worth and value on this world? No. Like she was not less than a person, less than a woman. That is a thousand percent a tangent. I love that you threw, I always said I like that you went there because when I said less than, it reminded me of that. This was hanging out with Jesse. That's it. You said something. Just call me cheddar cheese crocs. Just call me cheddar cheese crocs. No, what was the brilliant thing that you were going to say? Oh no, do you even remember what we were saying? Yeah, no, I was gonna say one level deeper before we go on because we have a point that we're leading up to. Yeah, right. Um I think the level deeper is when something good does happen. That's actually the thing that people want to that's where they tap in. You know what I mean? Right. That's where they're like, okay, boom, we're gonna throw the best baby shower because you struggled to get pregnant. But moving forward, no one wants to sit and honor the grief that you done. Which makes infertility people very upset and sad. Right. They want to celebrate the good thing that's happened. And it just, I think it maps perfectly onto that same thought that people like to celebrate and talk about good things. And they're sort of waiting for your good thing to happen, then they'll then they'll show back up. Do you think it's like they finally this person became the silver lining? Now I don't have to hold this tension anymore. Yeah, the tension's gone. The tension's gone. I can't I can sit in the celebration, which is so sad. And we can talk about the celebration over and over and over again. But the person who went through the grief is miserable. Yes. Uh they're still maybe stressed, anxious, and very much so feeling like, where were you when times were bad? You know, where were you when when this was difficult? Or it feels invalidating. It feels like, oh, thanks for I I you can accept me now. You can accept me now that I have done your silver lining or gave you hope, or you don't have to hold that tension anymore. Yeah. Oh. We suck at this as a culture. Why do we suck so bad at this? Man, I'm just we're, I think, like a like a psychology, like the psychologist we know would say we're pain averse as a people. Dr. Annie Ganall said it the best on one of our podcasts. She said, as human beings, we are pain avoidant. Yeah. We don't like pain. And drama's not that painful. Someone else getting into a car crash. If I'm not involved in the drama, it's not painful at all. It's a joy. Someone getting into a car crash, busting their knee up. That's not, that's, you know, it's a bummer, but it's not. And you'll heal. Typically, typically, not always, but typically. Fertility, disease, death. Yes. Even in all of those. And there's things I know I'm missing, but there are things that become so overwhelming that they are really hard to talk about. Yeah. And people, I don't even know if avoid is the right word. They're just uncomfortable with them. So the somehow they it never comes up. Somehow it just gets avoided. And that makes people feel unseen. Yep. All of this leads to what we were talking about when we wanted to do this podcast. We had this concept in our head that we were like, this is what we want to talk about. This is the problem. And it's this that within this topic, there is a big giant conundrum. We're calling it the conundrum. Welcome to the conundrum. That's our jingle. Welcome to the conundrum. I don't wonder if I have a good definition of a conundrum. Do people not know what conundrum means? I think uh do I know what a conundrum means? Conundrum means like a like a confusing thing. It doesn't make sense. What what is what what's the definition of conundrum? What's the definition of conundrum? A confusing, highly difficult problem that lacks an obvious or easy solution. We chose the right word. It is the conundrum. Highly difficult problem that lacks an obvious or easy solution. We have people, we have a conundrum. People, we have a conundrum. I think the conundrum is that we want the world to understand infertility. We want to be cared for when we want to be cared for. We want to be able to bring people into this struggle that we're going through and have them know a little bit of how to care for people. Know, oh my gosh, yes, fertility struggles. Okay, I understand that. I've learned about that. I know about that. How can I be there for you? We want them to say the right thing, not the cliche things. We want them to be comfortable with the uncomfortable when we want to talk about it. We don't want it forced upon us, but we want them to know and be good about bringing it up and be tender and gentle. Yet no one wants to talk about it to teach people how to do that. It's this weird conundrum of I don't want to talk about it, but I want people to know about it. And I'm not saying the conundrum's not anyone's fault. I actually think it's totally uh like normal. And we're in the same boat too. Is what did it say? An impossible situation with no easy solution. There's no easy solution. It's sort of like one of those things of like, we need to get better at this. And then, but then the people who are struggling, it's like everyone we kind of look at them and go, Well, you're the ones who should start talking about it. And it's like, but they're thinking, yeah, but I'm the one struggling. Why do I have to be the one talking about it? I'm the one going through it. Right. I should be cared for it. And I'm exhausted. And I'm exhausted. Right. But then we go, okay, well, then someone should. And then it's just not, it's this we're sort of we don't know where the way forward as a society. I really truly think that. I think we're struggling with the way forward. What is so classic, and I can see it happening on the news and all over the place, is we're talking about the medical procedures, which is great. Yes, which is a huge win. Education in that area. It's a huge one. Maybe that's the tip of the spear going forward. Do not say to me, and one more time, anyone on this earth, when I explain what an IUI is, say turkey baster. I just don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it anymore. I it's gone duly. So that's amazing. That is important. That is. I think the medical procedures becoming more popular and people more aware of them. Yeah. Maybe that's the tip of the spear. But I think the general person who's trying every month, yes, they want you to know what IVF is or fertility stuff. Probably though, they want you to see how painful it is, how hard it is. And hopefully, maybe talking more about the medical procedures, we get to the emotional side of it. But we're in a conundrum. Yeah. I don't think we have a clear path forward. Right. And it feels wrong just to look at every single person struggling and being like, you have to be the ones to educate your uncles. Right. You know, like we're not going to do like an educate your uncles fair. I struggled with the sentence. I couldn't even say the sentence because I didn't want anyone to feel like they have to or they should or it's their job or whatever, because I understand what a heavy load this is. But let me just take me as an example. I'm going to completely throw myself under the bus. This is not going to be fun for me, but I'm going to do it. Okay, tell us what's happening. Okay. Okay. Have to get in position. Before I met infertility and shook its hand, then flipped it off, then died inside. I was not great when it comes to thinking about infertility. No. Not not just infertility. Okay. I was the person that made the April Fool's Day joke that I was pregnant. I was at work. Me and you were like three years married. I totally did it. Immediately regretted it when my mom's best friend said, Oh my gosh, you're going to make the best parents in the world and you guys are the sweetest, and I can't wait to celebrate you. I was like, oh no. I did that. I asked people all the time when they were gonna get pregnant and when they were gonna have kids. I completely the thing that annoys me the most, I don't know why this always happens at weddings. People, I was the person that said I wanted Jimmy, Jane, and John, and I wanted them all this many years apart, and I wanted a boy and a girl, and then twins, and then like maybe one day we'll adopt kind of thing. I was that person. So until and I was, and I'm throwing myself underneath the bus. Even the other day, even the other day, I don't know what was wrong with me. I was getting my nails done and she was talking to me, clearly not recently, but like she was talking to me and she was asking about because we have two adopted children and we were talking about it, and then I just out of my mouth was just like, you have any kids? Like I look what I look what I do for a living. And I messed up. I completely messed up. And I and I remember going, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I did not mean and she was like, no, no, no, no, no, it's fine. I don't have any, I don't have any kids, and then she didn't have kids, and then I was like, oh my god, I feel worse. She might be eternal with infertility. And now when you tell me, like, I I so that just recently happened like a couple years ago, but we were in uniquely knitted at that point. Um, I was that person. I did do those things. I think I probably told people it'll happen. Like I remember this girl that I worked with this lawn, she has this famous story of how she got drunk in Vegas and had her two kids. Like, I'm sure I repeated that story to people. So I'm completely pulling myself under the bus. So I think all that to say is once you're in it, it's just so different. It's just so different. But all of those people, if they haven't experienced this, could be my dumbass. Who before I met infertility was completely ignorant, completely had no idea how painful that was. I just thought you went to high school, you went to college, you got married, you bought the house, you bought the SUV, and you had kids. Like I just thought that that's what it was. And then you had kids and you retired, like, or whatever. So I was just a product of my own environment, especially in the faith community environment. Of course, that's like you talk about that a lot. So I just feel like those people might still be me. And that is not to put pressure on anyone at all. But I think it is true. And when you're struggling with infertility, you're like, people don't get what this feels like. And I'm like, they don't. You're right. They don't. They might be still stuck, though, in that ignorant world that they don't know. But if the infertility community or people in our lives, I hate to say we don't tell or we don't share or we don't whatever, because that sounds so like you should. I'm not trying to do that. It's just that I don't know who would. Does that make sense? That makes so much sense. I think that's the conundrum. And the conundrum is I love how it said there's no easy solution. Yeah. That's not easy to do. And I'm not even saying you should or you shouldn't. I'm just saying if it's I didn't know until I was in it. Yeah. And I think the people that can help this infertility community be seen is the people in the community. Right. I think what what you're saying is that even, you know, even you back then, you're like, I needed to know who would tell me I needed to understand and see the world from this perspective. And I think that is the conundrum. The people who are struggling and suffering are the are the am I gonna be the one to teach Jesse how to do this? To shut up. Right. But they're probably thinking, but please shut up. But like, but I don't, but I don't want to be the one to tell you. So I think that's what I'm saying. Why I think we're stuck, right? Kind of not knowing what to do. And there's a there's so many good advocates and awareness groups, and we raise and we raise awareness and things like that. Will all of a sudden the world just start paying attention to all the advocacy? Right. They seem to be paying attention a little bit to the medical treatment stuff and and like advocating for that. So maybe that's like I said, that's the advocate. The tip of the spear or the way forward. But the chances are like in the next couple months, your family members, your friend group might not all of a sudden catch on to all this awareness. Right. So what do you do? Right. I think that there are there's a few ways out of the conundrum. Yeah, but not none of them are perfect. Like there's, like I said, like it's like we're you know, the definition is there's just no easy solution. There's a couple ways out of it, but both all of them have their own troubles. Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? I think what's so hard is like what are you saying? Like the story you shared? Yeah, the story I shared. Like, I I feel like it's so hard because the person that would advocate for themselves to be unseen is the infertile person, but the infertile person is exhausted, overwhelmed, anxious, tired, lonely, has no idea where to start, has maybe been in this for a really long time. And it's like the time that it would take me to update you on what I'm feeling. So all the compassion in the world, all the compassion is I think that's a part of it too, is the person that is advocating to be unseen, maybe, or wanting to be unseen, has all those other things with it too. Yeah. You know, and fears, fears of being misunderstood, all that. So what do we do about it? I think the first way out of the conundrum, or the the first way to solve the conundrum. I have it, I have, I have a I have a thought. What if what if you said the thing and then we said the benefit, but the the cost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the benefit of the c or the cost, or maybe the cost is not the right word, like the benefit or the thing I think the cost is the right word. That's not that's hard about it. I like the cost. The c the worth and then the thing that's not so great about it. That's a great, that's great. The first one and the first way out of the conundrum, this like problem that we're in, is the people who are going through infertility become their own advocates and advocate for their needs. Yeah, for their needs. Yeah, they advocate for their own experience and they advocate to get their needs met from the people in their lives. The benefit is that you have a really high likelihood that more of your needs will get met. That's a good way to put it. The parents, the chances go up. Understand what you're going through, and give you more of what you emotionally need. That would be epic and awesome. And I really like the way of thinking of it. It goes up. The chances go up. It is a not 100% guaranteed. You're working with people on the other end that might not be wanting to grow emotionally or be better people. You know what I mean? But it's like the chances go up if you do that, getting your need met, whatever it is that you need. The cost of that though is you have to do a ton of extra work. Not a ton. You have to do a lot of extra work. Yeah. And it's vulnerable and it's scary. And it's a whole new set of skills that you have to learn in the midst of struggling to get pregnant. Yeah. That is so hard. Yes. Yes. That's a heavy burden. Yes. Like to like every month be like, it didn't work. Or to go through treatment and be like, it didn't work. And then also, are we going to the game on Friday? Because we should probably tell them that it didn't work and we're in a bad spot. Right. Who's going to call them? How do you do that? That's just so much extra for someone to go through. It's hard enough to go through infertility. Now you have to do that. That's a that's a heavy toll that I feel like is forced upon this community if they want to go that route and solve the conundrum in that way. I think reward, cost, reward. The reward could be that the chances of advocating for your needs with your people, telling them what you need, telling them how you're feeling, telling them what's going on, is that the chances of your need getting met go up. The cost of that is that's really hard to do, can be emotionally exhausting when you're already in that place. And it's really hard to, I've said this in my groups multiple times, that it's really hard to advocate for your needs and get your needs met when you are in a sad, hard space. It just really, really, really is. It's really hard to grow when you're in a season of pain. Yes. It really feels a lot better and easier and probably like the grass is greener. It's like, I will just wait till this is over to start growing. Number two, the second way out of feeling unseen. Yes. The conundrum of who's gonna tell all these people how to do this. Right. We don't want to tell them. The first, like we just said, is that we tell them. Right. And there's a cost and there's a benefit to that. The second one is that we find people to go do this who are already doing this. And what I mean by that is you join a support group, you join one of our process groups, you find other people in your city or at your online who are also going through infertility, know what it's like, and then they become your people during the season. The benefit of that is that there's not a lot of education that you have to do. They already know. They already know they've already gone. Damn, that feels good. When someone goes, I know exactly how that feels. Even something just medically procedurally, but also of like, I know what that feels like to have a loss. I know what that feels like to have months and months and months of waiting. I know what that feels like. Like there is like And you're like, Do you feel overwhelmed? And they're like, so overwhelmed. And you just both cry. Balling. Both cry. Balling. Or for like, I've even like, you know, in like for sometimes with men and stuff like that, it's like, oh yeah, we went through that. And you're like, oh, it's the worst. And there's just this like quivery, sort of like, no, it's the worst. And no one gets it like someone who gets it. Yes, yes. Feels so the benefit is like immediate and it's works and it feels good. Not every community, but like the most of the time when you find people who've gone through it, there's just a it's an easier connection. Yes. Oh, you get it. Yes, huge benefit. Yes. The cost is those people don't live with you. Right. They are sometimes not in your real life. They're generally not in your friend group. Right. So maybe you have this amazing moment. Maybe you're in one of our groups. Yeah. And you or you do multiple of our groups. Yeah, and you love it. And you're with us on a Tuesday night, but then Friday, you guys are all going to the baseball game. And then there's like that one friend you have who says the unsensitive thing, insensitive thing, and you're like, why isn't this not like my process group that I'm in? And that's the cost is that when we don't tell the people in our lives and we go find them, we are still in our lives. And the people who that we told aren't necessarily in our lives. Right. So again, it's this conundrum. Like there's really good things to that, but there's also really hard things. Right, right, right. And being in groups, there is something. I mean, I I almost, and I know this hasn't happened to every person that's ever taken our groups ever, ever, but there is something that I feel when I start a group for the first week and I see all their faces, and I'm like, you guys are gonna connect so well. Like this is gonna be almost easy. Like easy because I feel like even you just said that nugget and I know someone else has filled it out. Like there is something electric that happens in a group like that when you feel seen and someone knows exactly how you're feeling and what you've been through. But right, one of the main things we talk about in our groups at the end typically is I wish I had this in my real life. Right. I don't feel as lonely, I don't feel as unseen, but I still feel unseen in my real life. My two best friends are still pregnant. My mom is still drives me nuts, like whatever it is. Like it, it is. It's like that. It feels so good and it does. And it's a great place to start, by the way. It's a great place to start. It's a great place to start to just get into a group and be like, oh my gosh, you get it. It's a great place to start. But yes, in your real life, I say real life, in your real life, those P that still exists. There are still kid birthday parties that you could go to or not go to. There are your two best friends are still pregnant, you still get invited to baby showers, it's still painful to be with your friends that all have kids. Like that all reality still exists, but it does feel so good. As you've been talking, I can't help but thinking, I love the word electric. Electric. Is there a band name electric? I just think it's a great way to describe something. It was electric. Did I say that about the groups? I don't even know if I did I say that. Yes. The vibe in this room is it was just electric. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel it. And I say that at the end. I want to live an electric life. I want when people hang out with me, I want them to be like, wow, that was electric. Yeah. And I will say this to talk about our process groups and to talk about this number two option is I do think they're electric? That they're electric. That they are electric. They are an electric guitar. No. That I do think that it is borderline impossible to understand what this world feels like if you haven't experienced it. But I don't feel like it's impossible. So join the group, get support from people that get it. But I don't feel like it's impossible for someone who doesn't know what this feels like to care for you. Right. That's what I would say. That's option one. Is you can teach people how to care for you. Yes, you can teach people how to care for you. It will go up. I'm not saying they're all gonna do it perfectly. I'm not saying that they're not they're gonna do it necessarily great every time. But if they are someone that you want to stay close to, I don't think it's impossible. So I do think that it's hard to understand what it feels like. Almost borderline impossible. But it's not impossible for someone to care for you while you are going through grief that that hasn't experienced infertility. Can I just say one thing? Yes. One asterisk. One asterisk to number one and number two before we go into number three, because I think number three is a little bit different. Is number one and number two, I think that there's a way that you can do both of the costs. I think that it does feel good to have people be seen and that know what this world feels like, and that is important, and a way to feel unseen. But sometimes it can leave it feeling unsatisfied totally because you're still in your life with your two best friends being pregnant and all that kind of stuff. And then there is a way to do both where you do educate your family, but they also and you do advocate for your needs. Maybe not educate your family, you do advocate for your needs and you're trying to get your needs met, but they don't understand. They don't get it. So that could be grief there. There could be grief that you're like, oh, I've even really tried to explain to my mom and advocate for my needs, but she still doesn't understand what it feels like. It's like, yes. So I think there's a way to do both, to go to a group of people that it's like, you get it, but you don't are not my best friend and you don't live with me and you don't, whatever, like you get it, and that feels so good. And tell that group of everything that you're feeling and how it feels and just process or whatever and get your need met in that way. And then there's also a thing where you can go to your family and say, you might not be the people that get this, but I still need care from you. Right. So I think that is like probably like the ideal. I think it's really hard to do. I think we use all three options throughout our life, whether we want to or not. Like I think it's there's times to that that we use all three. Yeah. I do. But I think I would go, I think I would think that like my mom might be the same person that I would go to and bitch about how hard infertility is and want her to get it. And I don't know if she could. Yeah. Because she's never gone through it. But I can advocate that I want you to see me and I want you to hear me talk. But they might, she might not get it. Yeah. What it actually feels like. Yeah. So I think there that you can use both for both things of like advocate for your needs, yes, but also grieve the fact that hey, this person that you're talking to, this best friend that's pregnant that has five kids, might not understand what it feels like, but they can hopefully still care for you because they do care for you. But it's still a conundrum because double the benefit, double the cost. Are you saying you're just exhausted at the end? I'm just saying it's a lot of work. This is what this has always been my thought. It's a lot of work. This has always been my thought about infertility, is that it introduces this like giant project to you in the midst of grief. Like you're like really just wanted to grow your family. You didn't want to do any of this. Yeah, for free. And then here we are on this podcast saying, okay, so here's the way out of this sort of conundrum is you have to go talk to your friends and family. You have to go join a group. Yeah. You're like, I don't want to do any of this. I just want to get pregnant. Yeah. Option number three. Although I hear you. I hear you. I do think that I think I think one and two sometimes work good in combo. Like in tandem. Going and finding people and also talking to your people. They work well in tandem. And I think you can both use them for a different need. There is nothing like talking to someone who has a miscarriage that knows what that feels like. But I think I go to people sometimes that haven't had that similar pain, expecting them to get it. But what I think I'm I want to do, and I've learned to do more, is like, I know you don't get this, but I still have a need to be seen. And I still want you to see me. And that sometimes is a grief in itself. It's like, wow, you have never experienced this. Option number three is more of, I would say, like a protective stance that says, I'm going to just bear the weight of this, and we're not going to tell really anyone. We're going to tell very, very few people, and I'm not going to join a group. I'm going to maybe listen to a podcast, watch some YouTube videos, but I we're really just going to shoulder it. Yeah. And hope that we get through it as quick as possible and then just back to life back to normal. Right. I think the benefit of that is you don't have to bring a bunch of people into your pain and do all of that work. Risk getting toxic positivity, all these things. You can just stay with the people that you're in and kind of just smile and grin and cry on the way home and just sort of shoulder it. You don't have to go join a group. You don't have to find new people. You just sort of bear it. The cost of that is it's emotionally really taxing and really overwhelming. And it's possible that those pains that you picked up during infertility won't just go away, that they'll just sort of stay with you. Right. And the grief and the anxiety and the trauma will just sit with you for longer, maybe, than it needs to. I think that's that's the the pain of the pain and the cost of that. However, I just that sounds like the one that, oh, you shouldn't do that one. And I know maybe what you're thinking. Like, well, just don't do that one because that's the one. No, I want people to feel seen. I want people to use a tiny bit. I want people to feel seen. But no, I'm not saying that don't do that. I'm not judging. I just think it's the one that people choose a lot. Yeah. Is just, I will just shoulder this. And it's hard. With infertility, you think it's around the corner that it's going to end. So you think this next month. Imagine if you were like in, I mean, not imagine, I did it. I lived it. Imagine living and be like, in 30 days, all of this could go away. I could get my period and it will just be done. Or I won't get my period and it'll just be done. And whatever. You know what I mean? So it's like you can't you also think, okay, I'll get care then for when it's exciting and I don't have to hold the tension of people that me being in pain. You know what I mean? You always think it's just about to end. You always think the baby is right around the corner. So that's really, really hard. Who wants to be like, I'm gonna jump into that when it could end in 30 days or something? You know, that one reminds me of like the example I use where I say it's like a demented casino. You know? I've never heard this example. I think I said it maybe last time or something. That infertility is like some kind of demented casino. Oh, where you keep playing, you know, like you keep pulling the lever on the what are those things called? The slot machines? Slot machines. You keep pulling the lever, and maybe I'll hit three cherries or whatever it is now and I'll hit the jackpot. And it's like maybe just one more, just one more, one more day, one more month, one more cycle. And if it ever gets too bad, I'll tell someone, but you kind of just keep playing, yeah, and you're like, oh, I'm really in the hole now. Like, I'm really not in a great place. Right. But I think a lot of people do that. And and I don't want to say that that that that's wrong. Wrong because it's where a lot of people are at. Yeah. And I think I think what they're saying, they're not saying I want to do the one that hurts the most. What they're saying is it's hard. What if, what if next month it just we just get pregnant and it just goes away? Like, what if this cycle just works to perfection and it's done and we can just move on? Educate my mom, talk about my hard feelings in a process group when it could end in 30 days. And we could, I mean, I'm sure if this is not someone's first time listening to this podcast, we all are aware that it doesn't end sometimes when you get it. But when you're looking at it and you're like, I could do, I could do four more months. Like, let's just give it four more months. Yeah. And you never know what's gonna happen. Like that, you'll just that that keeps you going. And I think a lot of people are choosing that way out of this conundrum. Yeah. It hurts. Why are people saying these things? Nobody's see. I don't feel seen, right? I don't feel seen. Okay, I'll just push through for four more months. I'll push through for the rest of this year. And if it doesn't happen, then I'll do something. I just think that's a lot of people are there. Right. And I and like I said, I think we use all three options all the time. I think we should use all three options all the time. Like there is some times where we just go. At times we have to just like shoulder it. But if it's okay, it's okay to not be okay, but to just live in that not okay-ness forever is not okay. Right. I think it's okay to be like, this is really hurting me right now. I need to do something for this rest of this month. I just I'm not gonna do anything this month. I'm just let's just make it through. And there's a benefit to that. You just no one, you just kind of keep moving, you hold it, you know? Right. But then at times, it's when you're not okay, we have to reach out. And and the cost of reaching out is high. You got to do the work to sign up, and those people aren't really in your everyday life, but you get to be seen. Yes. And then there's other times where I gotta tell my sister about it. I just have to tell her what's going on. And it's gonna be awkward and weird that I'm gonna say, can you stop sending ultrasound pictures in the group chat? Right, right. It's gonna be weird that I'm gonna say that, but it's possible that my need might get met. Right. And that is so necessary. So I think that we have to use to get out of the conundrum, we have to use all three at times. And we're not saying that everybody, I don't know why, I just feel like I always have to say this. We're not saying that everybody that you would advocate for your needs would do it well. Yeah. And sometimes maybe you're thinking, I don't really have anybody in my real life. Like I need groups, I need process groups, I need that so bad because I really don't have anybody. Maybe your family wasn't someone that talked about emotional needs. Maybe your friends, you've had friends since you were kindergarten and you all do the same, you know, script, like I'm the funny one in my group or whatever. It's like, and we don't talk about like it's like maybe you're like, no, I don't really have anyone. And that's that's really hard. And that's but then that's where our groups would be a great place, process groups and support groups and stuff like that would be a great place to start. You know what I mean? So to recap, we see infertility makes you feel unseen. That to get out of that unseeness or that invisibility. You kind of have three options. Yeah, you're like you're kind of stuck in this conundrum of like, well, I kind of want you to see me. I don't know how to get to get you to see me. Do I have to do something? It's like you're stuck in this sort of weird position. There's three ways out of it. You shoulder it and just bear it, you go find the people or you tell your people how to care for you. That's a it's a big topic. Yeah. And I would just say Hopefully that hopefully that did we do that well. I think that's I think that's really good. Yeah. And I just want to say one thing before we end is we see you. Like, we see you. If the only thing that you get out of this podcast is that, like, maybe yeah, I do, I do do number three, and I'm really not, I'm not gonna be in a place, I don't see my being in a place anytime soon of joining a process group or you know, talking to my mom about how I feel or whatever. And maybe me and Doug, you and I are the only people that are in their lives that's talking about this kind of stuff. Yeah. I just want to say that we see you. Like we see you. We see you. You are not unseen to us. We see you, we hear you, um, and we see how hard this is. I think why I advocate for people to be seen, especially in the infertility community, is because I've seen such beautiful things happen. So I feel like I want that. But for people, that's why I became like a big advocate in this community, because I want people to feel seen. Um, but if this is the only way that you feel like you have the capacity to even be seen is just listening to a podcast. Like, I see you. I totally see you, I hear you, I see you. You are not invisible. Um just know though that you are not too much or too anxious or too depressed or too much of a burden to care about. Like you are not. You deserve support, you're worthy of support. And whatever way that works for you, even if just knowing that helps you, even just hearing it helps you, that's great. But know that you are worthy and deserve your mom to understand you. You are worthy and deserve for you to process and someone goes, gosh, I know how that feels. Like you are worthy of that. Like, and you are worthy and deserve not to be lonely. It's just really hard. I remember one girl in my process group one time said, Wait a minute, are you advocating that we have to like go through this and grow ourselves? And I'm like, Yeah, you don't have to. It's an option. You don't have to, you don't have to. Yeah. But like, you know, and it's gonna take a lot of work. I was like, yeah. And she was like, ugh, but she was being like funny about it or whatever. But like, and so I also see how hard that is. I see how hard it is to advocate for your needs, to join a process group, to join a support group, to join all those things. Um and we just see you. We see you and where you're at. See you. All I know is this podcast feels electric. Electric. So you was would you say it feels kind of cheddar cheese croc electric? Those cheddar cheese crocs feel electric. With my mini and Mickey, um, what are these called again? Crock pins. Crock pins. Do you have croc pins? But do you have croc pins? And I found this on the ground at Disneyland. I probably shouldn't even be touching it. I probably shouldn't even be touching it. I found it on the ground at Disneyland. You found a trash crock pin. I found a trash crock pin coming out of um Grizzly River Rapids. All on the ground. It was like, oh, take that from a croc. I don't know if people want to be seen by us at this point. You don't want to be seen by someone who wears cheddar cheese crocs. Platform cheddar cheese crocs. Thank you for listening to the infertility feelings podcast. This podcast is brought to you by cheddar cheese crocs. This podcast is brought to you by Uniquely Knitted, a nonprofit for people who are struggling with infertility. If you want to know more about what we're doing, if you want to donate, support this show, become a partner, or just join Uniquely Knitted, go to uniquely knitted dot org. We love you, we see you. Thank you for listening.