Infertility as an Anxious Person

Infertility can make ANYONE anxious. But... what if you are ALREADY an anxious person?!

That is what this podcast episode is about. 

In this special episode, Jesse is interviewing a special guest who is an expert in knowing what it's like to be an anxious person going through infertility. 

If you feel like you are a bit more anxious, this episode is for you. We talk about the three ways that anxiety plays itself out in life and how infertility impacts all three. 

We also look at what we can do with our anxiety when we are feeling overwhelmed by infertility.

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We partner with fertility clinics, hospitals, therapy centers, and anyone who serves the infertility community. https://form.typeform.com/to/Q7ht8QsV

⭐️ Help us change how the world sees infertility!
Join a monthly giving club, support the show, and raise awareness about infertility and mental health. https://www.uniquelyknitted.org/uniquely-committed

❤️ This podcast is produced by Uniquely Knitted.
Uniquely Knitted exists to transform the experience of infertility. Our mission is to heal the traumas of infertility, miscarriage, and loss, and to end the isolation that comes with struggling to conceive. We achieve this by providing innovative, evidence-based preventative mental health support to those fighting to grow their families.

Discover more at https://www.uniquelyknitted.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the Ever Somebody for Linux podcast. I am gonna be the interviewer, if you will. Just call me up, bro. And I'm going to be interviewing someone. This someone is an expert in all things anxiety. What it feels like to experience anxiety, and we are gonna talk about what it's like to be an anxious person and experience it for somebody. We had to search high and low for this expert. We flew him in, we got him here, he said yes. Thank goodness. So without further ado, our expert of the hour is me is Doug Rap.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

We had to fly you in here. Is your accommodations okay? Your hotel accommodations are they okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Did you have only yellow MMs or whatever you had to like say that you needed to be on our podcast today?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

I'd like to thank the Infertility Feelings Podcast for flying me out and being here. It's an honor to be here with you all.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

It's the least we could do because we needed an expert on what this feels like.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I'm happy to be the expert.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Would you say that you are an expert on anxiety and what it feels like as a human being? You're not saying that you have your doctorate in anxiety or you've studied anxiety. It's more that you just are an expert in having anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

What a wonderful thing to be an expert in. What a wonderful thing. We're not saying you know what you're talking about. We're just saying that you've been anxious for a really long time. Yeah. No, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I mean, we've had episodes where we have like uh psychologists who specialize in anxiety, but we were thinking about this episode, and it's so important. And we wanted to talk about what it's like to be an anxious person and go through infertility. And we had to look no further than right here.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Look no further than Doug Malcolm Brown. So everyone.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

What an honor.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I think I think a lot of people in our groups exper are already anxious people. And so we hear about this a lot. And I think I said out loud, man, I'd love to interview someone on like what it feels like to be put to be already an anxious person and then to be put in an anxiety-provoking situation. And you were like, I can do it. And I'll why didn't I think of you? Hello.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

What happened is Jessie targeted me. She was like, we need to do this, and you're anxious. So you're gonna be the guest. I guess. Am I a guest? I'm gonna be a guest today.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

You're gonna be a guest. You wore your suit coat with your hat. You're matching denim on denim. Is it denim on denim? What is it?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Ladies and gentlemen, this is uh like just I don't know, not not denim. I don't know. No, it's blue on blue. Yeah, but what's what fab when it's just regular fabric? Yeah, it's cotton.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Cotton on cotton, but it's the fabric of our lives. Anxiety, the cripplingness of our lives.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Anxiety, the fabric of my life.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

So to cut to the chase, I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out a more creative way to ask this question, but I don't think there is a more creative way to ask this question. What does it feel like to be an anxious person already struggle with anxiety and then you meet infertility? What is that experience like?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Well, let me can I answer that question in a really weird, unique, unique, very me sort of way? Please say no. What if she said no?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Of course you can. I wouldn't expect anything less, really, at this point.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Um, okay. To answer that question, I feel like I just want to spend a little bit of time on talking about anxiety in general. Is that okay? Can we start there?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yes, we can start there. Are you asking my you're the it's your I guess, yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I get to do whatever I want. Um anxiety in general. I think that's a good place to start because I was thinking about how to answer that question. What's it like to be an anxious person, go through infertility? It's very difficult. But I was also thinking, I don't know how to explain that unless I can explain what for me, like how I understand anxiety and where it came from, what is it? And it will kind of give us some categories to figure out how to talk about that. Is that okay? Yes. Why do I keep asking for permission?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

No, no, no. I don't know. I'm like, yes, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Okay. Do you know where the word anxiety came from?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

No. Wait, that was on Final Jeopardy last night.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Anxiety is an old topic, but it's not that old.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Probably saying it ha wait, are you saying people in Bible times didn't weren't anxious?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

No, I'm saying that the concept that we have of anxiety is not that old. It like the the the like psychological sort of like condition that we consider anxiety like sort of came about during like Freud and like modern psychology that we sort of named it at that time. But people were talking about that feeling for a long time. Okay, and but still not even that long. So I want to go back to, and this is my background in philosophy, a philosopher named Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard talked about a word that was angst, which translates into anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

He talked about angst more sounds anger to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. Like your angsty with yeah, angsty. Like a teenager. That's a little bit like the feeling that he was going after, like this internal angst, which is I'm gonna talk about three categories that I think are all a part of anxiety. The first one is what I would consider part of being a person, like what it just means to be a human. And this is Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard said that anxiety, this angst, like the concept of anxiety, comes from the like the concept of what it means to be a person, which is that the future is completely unknown. He talks about like going up to a very tall height and and like looking down off this cliff. It's almost this dizziness of freedom that you're up on this cliff, and it's not that you could, oh my gosh, I could fall off. It's that you could jump off. And it's like that's what's scary. It's like, oh my gosh, I could someone could push me off. There's like this unknown part of what it means to be alive. And that is like the for him, the core of anxiety. So I just think anxiety, some people are concerned with like some people that bugs them. And I think that's a very human thing of like wait, what bugs them? It it just gets at them. The the the unknownness of the future, the like the dizziness of the freedom that the future could be this or it could be that. That like we don't know what will happen. Kierkegaard talks about how the future is scary because you could be this thing or you could not be this thing. You could be or you could not be. Like you could live or you could die.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Or whatever that quote is from.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

No, that's not where that's Shakespeare, but now we're that's not where it's coming from.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

That's it. Shakespeare. That's right. Um wrong philosopher. Do you call Shakespeare a philosopher?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Uh, I mean, you could, but no, that's Hamlet. Hamlet says that.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Forgive me.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Hamlet, though, is talking about the anxiety, though, of like indecision. Like, what should I do? Will this happen or will this not happen? That's where that to be or not to be comes from. But I I think that's sort of at the heart of it is like, what will the future look like? There, if there's this thing of freedom and the future could be anything, that means the future could also be nothing. And that sort of anxiety, that angst, is in the heart of what it means to be alive. So I think that's like the first concept of anxiety that I that I feel like is an important thing for me that I that I actually do take into consideration. That like some people, I think not everyone thinks it about the future that way, but for me, I think about the future that way. It's sort of dizzying, if that's a word. Like it does grounding. Yeah, it does get to me. Like, like what will happen in the future? Like it could be anything. Right. This could happen, this could not happen. When we were starting uniquely knitted, like in this podcast, like, will it work? Will it not work? You know?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

And I'm sure super helpful in that. Like, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be great. We're gonna have a good time. It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Right. And that's like looking at the future, being like, everything will be everything will be good. Yeah. And then I I go, but if everything can be good, that means everything cannot be good. And that sort of unknown of the future is core to what it means to be a person. Like there, that that the future is unknown. That's the first part.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

The second part is I would say, and there's a lot of good research about this, that there's a certain if it's part of being human is the Kierkegaard stuff. I think there's also just part of being you. And I think there is a lot of good research that says some people come off the factory line, like they're just born a little bit more anxious. They're just a more their anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

That is actually statistically proven. Sorry, that that is like some people are just born a little bit more anxious.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah, there's a really great research uh study and project about highly reactive people, like high reactive people who are just their nervous systems are just a little bit more finely tuned to danger, to um stimulus and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Like we're just kind of like more like sometimes like a highly sensitive person. Yes, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Like there are people who are just like that noise that maybe someone just tunes out, they're like, what was that? You know, someone walks in the room and they're a little bit more geared towards like reacting in a certain way. And they've studied that that that people like are literally like that. That you know, they're just born like that. It's there's not um anything that really conditions them to be like that, that there are you know, in under the same circumstances, someone can be a little bit more highly anxious and then someone's not, and they're both sort of under the under the same circumstances. People maybe kind of debate how much of it is truly just how you were born, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

And then like nature versus nurture kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, but I do think that there's good research that says there are people who are just a little bit more highly anxious. So I think who you are is like a huge part of anxiety too, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Because sometimes I would say that I am an anxious person. Like I'm a more anxious person. And I would say that there is why we brought you here. I would say that there is a part of that that um is just kind of who I am. It's just sort of in my DNA. I'm a more reactive, sensitive, highly reactive person.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

You more of the future think glass half empty kind of thing, which that was like that qualification.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

I don't know about that's more like pessimistic.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

I'm talking about just I'm more tuned in to what's going on, you know? And I'm more highly sensitive to think like, oh, that could go wrong. Or that and you just kind of like you know, I'm I'm just tuned into what's going on in my life and in the room and in circumstances and stuff. I'm definitely not one of those people who like you know, you come home and you're like, your shoe is like the tongue of your shoe has been like flipped inside out and it's just been bent all day, which is so you Jesse will come home and I'll be like, I'll be like, Jesse, like the collar of her, like this. If you're on, if you can like are on video, it'll be like this all day. And she'll come home and I'll be like, What? How do you not feel that?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

No, I I think one time you said, How do you live like you? What is this? I will totally the tongue, all yeah, no, yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Like a collar of your jacket just flipped inside out all day, and I'm like, how do you not notice that, you know? Nope, that is it. Um, okay, so that's the second category. The third category I would say is probably the more traditional category, which is it's a part of your history. You know, anxiety can come from a part of your history. And I think that's probably what most people think of is the the people who raised you, the circumstances that you were raised in, the culture you were raised in, the culture you were raised in, the the traumas that happened to you, the the up and down nature of your life. Yeah. I think that's probably the most uh commonly understood uh way of you know thinking about anxiety, which that has an interesting history too, as well. Uh I love this. I love this idea. I don't it's sad because it's horrible, but it just seems so old-timey to me. It makes me kind of laugh. Is uh during the Civil War, they would they noticed that soldiers after the Civil War were what?

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Anxious, a little stressed out, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Like literally, yeah, yeah. I mean, like I can't think of something more traumatic to go through, right? Um, and they they had this thing, I think I'm saying it right, they called it DaCosta syndrome. Basically, like a doctor had noticed people acting a certain way, and he said that they have nervous hearts, or something like that. Basically, they're just like describing like clear anxiety symptoms or PTSD symptoms, or like they had just gone through hell, and then a doctor's like, Oh, you seem to have a nervous heart. And it's like, What?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, it does seem like cute or almost juvenile. Like what?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

It just seems so old timey to me.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, it does seem old timey.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Like he was trying to probably seem to be suffering from the tremors of the heart, you know? It's just like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

You just saw all your family and friends be killed. Yes. You just went through battle, and then yeah, like a pot falls in the kitchen and you're like, ah, right. Like he's got the nervous trembles.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Like, it's just so funny. Think about that. That that's right. It's not that old, if that makes sense. Like some of the some of what we consider to be so normal, not even that long ago, people were like, that's weird. You seem to be uh like a nervous heart. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

We had no language for something like anxiety. Right. Kierkegaard was even before that though, talking about this like angst of like, oh, I feel this like angst about what will the future happen. Then you have these people who are just more nervous people, more anxious people. Then you have these horrors that happened to us as growing up. Then it's like Freud, who sort of he talks about anxiety. He talks, he did say he brings up Kierkegaard angst, but it's more in the category of like, here's a set of here's a set of things that we see in people who have quote unquote anxiety. Then you have like the DSM five stuff and the most updated versions of it. It basically becomes a list of like here's these things that if you are displaying these things, then you could be considered having anxiety. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yes. Per my last email. What does it feel like to struggle with infertility and be more of an anxious person? Thank you for all that, the history.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Within that last category, there's one more distinction I want to make. Then I'm gonna get to your question. I promise.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Perfect, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I think I think even in that last category of like what has happened to you, psychologists and therapists also distinguish between this person is an ang has almost like an anxiety disorder now, or this person is in an anxiety-provoking situation. Kind of like the the the differentiation between climate and weather, if that makes sense. Like it can be cloudy one day, but that doesn't mean the climate of that area is always cloudy. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Think about like the I don't think I've ever thought about climate and weather being two separate things.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Think about like uh like if you live not on the if you lived on the equator, it's always hot. That's the climate of the equator. It's a hot climate, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

But if you live somewhere like northern northern of that, like in New York, it's not always hot. Sometimes it's cold, sometimes it's warm, sometimes it's rainy, sometimes it's snowy. Right. But there are days where it's hot for sure. But you wouldn't say it's hot in New York today. The climate of New York is 80, 80, you know, mid 80s, hot. Like, no, it changes. Right. I think that's true that people try to distinguish between with anxiety, too, of someone can be an anxious person, and that's like their climate. Like they are an anxious person, and because of what's happened to them, they almost have an anxiety disorder. Maybe they're maybe they have like a lot of tools to manage their anxiety, maybe medication is part of those tools. But then there's also people who are just going through an anxious situation, like it's finals, or there's a big project do at work, and this is anxiety-provoking. We have to present in the boardroom coming up, and so there's so it's really complicated in all of that, and that like there's anxious situations, right? There's anxious people.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Well, in our previous podcast with Dr. Annie Ganal, who is a psychologist, and specializes in anxiety, specializes in anxiety. She, I think she did a really good job. It's a few episodes back, you'd have to like scroll back, but she she, I feel like did a good job, and I feel like it helped me actually a lot in the moment recording this podcast with her of like there what's the difference between stress and anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

And I would say I probably more have stress with anxiety situations come up than I am an anxious person. Yes. I would say, and I would say you are an anxious person and deal with it with anxiety too. And it's more anxious. Like there's a difference between stress and anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, anxiety being like a lot of what ifs about the future. But also I would say that there are times that are just more anxiety provoking. Sure. You know, like a non-anxious person can encounter infertility and feel a lot of anxiety about the future.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yes, yes. I did.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

What we're talking about in this episode, though, is if you're already an anxious person and you get hit with infertility. The reason I brought up those three is because it's not enough just to say, oh yeah, infertility triggers your anxiety. Because I maybe if you are an anxious person, you've thought about those things that I've said. I feel like those three categories actually really help me because the first one is just what it means to be a person. Right. You know? Like it's normal. It's well, it's just like that's yeah, to be a person is to not know what's gonna happen in the future. Like we literally don't know the future. Right. And then it's also like some people come off the come into the world just a little more anxious, you know. And then there's nothing you can do about that. Like you're just your nervous system is tuned to that. And then ultimately the things that have happened to you when you were younger, you don't have any control over either. Right. So it's just like if those are three really good categories to think about anxiety. Now we can talk about infertility because infertility to me messed with each of those categories individually.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Does that make sense why I brought it up? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And why am I? I wish you just said I brought up those three points because I wanted to. That's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

No. No, the thing, the the though, they really did mess with me in those three categories. The first one, the like the this being human one. Well, what on earth? Like, as a human, you come into the world thinking that I will live a certain life and like have these things that happen to me, and like everything will be okay. And and when we want to have kids, we'll have kids. And infertility was like an atom bomb to that, just blew up that whole system. Right. I was like, well, I I already kind of felt this dizziness about the future. What will it be? And now I don't even know. Like now it's more dizzy than ever before. Like I was standing on a high dive, and then I just went like 10 stories up, looking down at the water, being like, uh oh. Like, well, now I'm really dizzy because I do not know what the future will look like. Right. The second one being just being a little bit more of like an anxious person, infertility gives you infertility is anxiety provoking. Like, even in the way that it is, if that makes sense. Like the you don't get a lot of information. It's not a cut and dry sort of situation. You go in not knowing the future, not knowing the future, but it even then it's like, okay, we're gonna do this internal ultrasound. We'll see what we find. You're like waiting for results, and then you like do it uh like maybe like a an analysis, and you're sort of like checking your phone and checking your chart, and you're like, ah, so in and of itself, it's anxiety provoking. So if you're more just like baked as an anxious person, it's not a it's not a system that helps you. Like you're like that, it hits you square in the face like in that.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Probably if you were an anxious person and and you had to interact with something like that, but you could not, your therapist would probably tell you, probably not a good idea to interact with that being a more of an anxious person. And you have to interact with it if you want this, if you want to get pregnant or whatever it is, you have to you have to interact with it.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Right. I truly think that things in life can be difficult, but not necessarily very anxious, you know? Running Yeah, not anxiety provoking. Like things, something can be difficult to me, but not anxiety provoking. Running a marathon would be really difficult. I'm not a very good runner and I don't it would be really hard to do. Yes. I don't know if it would necessarily be anxiety provoking. Um, even like school to me wasn't very anxiety provoking. It was hard and very like, you know, studying and passing class. It was hard and it was difficult, but not that anxiety provoking. If you did the work and you studied, you kind of did okay, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

If any you were just tired. Yeah. And you were like stressed out about it. But stressed about like doing the paper and finishing it and finding the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

But just not very anxiety provoking, like the what ifs of like, well, what if I don't study? It's like, well, you then you won't pass. Just just study, like it just felt more simple. This is like it felt like the like a sort of demented casino, you know, where you're like going in, you're like putting in a thousand dollar bill into the slot machine, going like, I hope that you pull it, pull the thing and nothing happens. And you're like, What? Like that is anxiety provoking. So

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

That's sort of but that but the nature of it was just anxiety provoking for someone who's already anxious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

It was horrible. And and the the crank of when you're waiting to see if you actually won or struck the sevens or whatever could be six months. You know what I mean? It could not just be like 30 seconds like it is on the machine or whatever. It could be so long.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

So it's not as an anxious person, it's not that it was difficult. It was that it it particularly played on the anxiety. You know, specifically if I can be as tangible as possible, waiting for results. You're always waiting for results. You're peeing on a stick, you're waiting for the thing. Is there two lines? Is there one line? That is just so exciting provoking. Because what it's it is it a what if, you know, what if it doesn't work?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

What if I and it's wrapped into the biggest what if? What if we can't have kids? That's the biggest what if ever.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Then goes to that first one, which is very existential. Every little tiny what if played a part in this big what-if of like, well, what's the future gonna look like? So it was just like a one-to-one.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

It's just like running away from what ifs and you can't.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, and I think it does that to everyone. But if you're already an anxious person and you're sort of tuned for anxiety, it feels like you're underwater pretty quickly, you know? Pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Like what does being underwater feel like like that?

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Totally helpless. Like, like there's nothing you can do. You just feel totally helpless. And then the last one, what's kind of happened to you, your history, I think infertility plays on that a ton too, as well. Yes. Because it brings up all your old dramas.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

It loves to do that. It loves to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah. So if you have a lot of anxiety, because some people have anxiety in all three of these categories, you know? And and I think Would you say that is you? Yeah. I think that's the most people. Like if you're an anxious person, you probably these three categories resonate with you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Do you think people are surprised that you have anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Me? Yeah. Do I look like I have anxiety? I'm sure some people were like, yeah. Yes. I'm like shaking and lip twitching.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Right. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Um, yeah, uh, I don't know. No, no. I think a lot of I know I was a lot of like the persona that I put out in the world is that I'm like, don't have anxiety, or that I'm not a very anxious person. But then when people get to know me, they're like, Oh, you're kind of you're kind of high strung.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

A nicer way to put it. Yes. You've heard neurotic, not as nice. Uh, but I think right.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

It's some people use the word neuroses. Yeah, neuroses. But uh yes, yeah, like especially when I was in high school, like driving a VW van, surfing. Yeah. Archives stressed about stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Um, but I also think I do it an okay job of managing anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Uh-oh. That's from Jesse. Uh-huh. My wife. Sure. Yeah. No, I think I just want to, before we move on, I want to say infertility does play on your past traumas. Like, you know, like if you if you've had some kind of if you've had sexual trauma and then and that is that does give you like uh an anxiety about intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

That's probably in infertility where I got anxiety the most because I had sexual trauma.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

So that was that was where it showed up the most for me. Yeah. Waiting wasn't as bad. Wasn't as bad. I mean, waiting on our one embryo to see if I was pregnant, two week wait, not good. But I would say that was probably the pinnacle of it. But yeah, that's where my mind would come out, is kind of in that area. But waiting, taking shots, more of the unknowns, that wasn't as hard for me. Because I think I'm not as prone of an anxious person. I'm not trying to sound like I'm like better than anyone.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

I just don't Jesse has her own problems. We're not talking about you today, okay? Exactly. You're not in the hot seat today.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Exactly. Well, you put me in the hot seat next time. It's fine. You can. You can.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

But if you have intimacy anxiety, yeah, and that's something you're managing, you know about, and you're thinking about it, you're already maybe a little bit more of an anxious person. And then someone's like, All right, we need you to uh have sex on these days at this time, and then we'll come in and do an internal ultrasound. You're like, whoa, that's a lot. Yes. Yes. In like I said, in that area. Very quickly, you're just underwater. You're just you feel helpless, like there's nothing you can do, and you are struggling. And it's even more anxiety-provoking. Like a lot of the anxiety symptoms are like you're worrying, you have trouble sleeping, you can't concentrate. Depressed for for most of the day, most of the days of the week. And you know, when you're going through something like infertility, it does become most of the day, for most of the days of the week, that you are worried and can't sleep, and you're struggling, and you're thinking about the future, and it's hard to calm down. You know, maybe in when you're not going through infertility, it's more manageable. But then now when you're waiting for finding out if you're pregnant, it's like, yeah, it's most of the day for most days of the week. Right. I know.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I was just gonna say, how did that play out for you? Like for Doug Brown in the middle of our infertility journey, like what is like describe what is happening in your body on a day-to-day basis or your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

It feels exhausting. It feels like I can't keep up, I can't keep it up, you know? Like I can't keep up this like energy that it takes to try to focus on everything my body wants to focus on. You know, I want to think about everything, I want to focus on everything. I want to, I'm thinking about all the possibilities. And my not only like so, like the root of the word anxiety, it is like a narrowing. Like that's the Greek concept. It actually was a physiological thing before it was a psychological thing. Oh like Yeah, people would talk about like a narrowing. So, like a narrowing of the of the throat. Like that's I think old school people used to think like, oh, you have a narrowing of the throat back in like in the Greek times, like you know, like no one knew how to talk about emotions. They thought emotions were put in your brain by the gods. We don't have to talk about that right now. But but they would say, Oh, I think when someone was feeling anxious, they would say, Oh, he's has a nit, the gods are or he's having a narrowing of the throat because you were like, I can't breathe. Right. Like panic attack. It's like like a panic attack, they would say, Oh, his throat is narrowing.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

But I get it what you're saying. It was more than that. But I think so.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

So I think like that still holds though. There is like this narrowing of your capacity. Yeah. I can't, I'm I can't get, I'm breathing through a straw. Sometimes physically, but but mentally too. Like I'm mentally thinking through a straw. Like I can't, I can't get my thoughts, I can't focus, and I'm at work and my brain is just screaming to me about go research this thing, go look up this thing, think about this. You better like go to the worst case scenario and get comfortable with it as quick as possible because you know, like even that. Like taking a breath just feels like, whoa, I need to calm down. You know, like that just feels hard to do. And again, most of the day, most days of the week. It's like that for a month, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Oh, months, and we that was like imagine living like that for a month though.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

But imagine living like that for a month. Like you would get to a point where you're like, I'm exhausted. White flag, right? White flag, like I cannot keep going. I think that's for most people who struggle with anxiety, who encounter infertility, you just get run over pretty quickly and you're like, Yeah, I can't keep doing, I have to do something different.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

I feel like yeah, I feel like the way that you're describing it, it kind of I feel like plays out in our relationship too. Like, I feel like I was like, Aren't you sad? Don't you want to grieve? And you're like, I'm sorry. I'm working on my narrowing of the throat.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah, yeah. My throat is narrowing.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, my throat is narrowing. Like, it's so funny. Like looking back, I'm like, I was so like just wallowing in self-pity and sadness and stuff like that. And I feel like I would try to meet you in it and be like, aren't you sad? And I feel like you said so many things of like, I remember like after we decided to walk away from trying to grow our kids naturally. Sounds so weird, having biological children and going into adoption. I remember like it was like months to maybe a year later, yeah, year and a half, maybe, where you looked at me, we were sitting on the couch, you paused the show that we were watching, and you goes, and you looked at me and you go, we can't have biological kids. And I was like, I was like, Doug. Welcome. I'm like, welcome, welcome to it.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

That's but that's like that's how long it took for me to catch a breath and go, Oh my gosh. And the thoughts started to flow more freely. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

I'm looking at it through a different angle now. I feel like even in this podcast, we've talked about like how we grieve differently. And now the way that you just described it, I'm like, I don't think we grieve differently. I don't think you grieved.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Because I don't think that you were able to. How you were just describing it, I think like the narrowing of the throat, the, and I love how you said, because I feel like I've heard people say this in our groups too, a screaming. My brain is screaming. Research this, look up this, whatever. Like you're you're fighting it almost a different voice than I am. I don't have a voice when I'm we're in anxiety-provoking situations. I do sometimes, but like not a screaming voice. Yeah. That's like distract from what you're doing, distract what you're doing, only focus on this, solve, because you're probably trying to solve the what if.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And then that almost in turn, do you feel like that makes it worse?

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah. And it's all internal.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

You know, like I think about those people after the Civil War where they're like, oh, you seem to have a nervous heart. Right. You're like, yeah, it's because you're I'm sitting here at the dinner table, but I'm not at the same time. I'm I'm choking, like I'm like I can't breathe mentally or even sometimes physically. Like I'm anxious about what's going to happen in the future. And again, in those, in those three ways, it's existential. It feels biological that like I'm just like over stimulated and can't stop thinking. And then also it's playing on all of my history. It just feels like you're like trapped, can't get out of it. Like I I've looked back on like journals and stuff that I you would write at that time. And I just the overarching theme over and over and over is I feel helpless, helpless, helpless. If I could do something about it, I would, but I just feel trapped by anxiety, you know?

SPEAKER_00 32:13

And probably grief for you also feels anxiety provoking. Because grief is, would you say, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like grief is almost anxiety provoking of like, whoa, wait, there's still stuff that I could think about. There's still what ifs that we haven't crossed off. Like grief feels like a little bit more final, even though I don't think it has to be. But it feels does that make sense what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I think grief is like grief almost feels anxiety provoking for an anxious person. Yeah. Maybe sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

I think it can. I also think anxiety is very instinctual and like root to what it means to be a person. So I hear what you're saying, and you're like, you should grieve, you should do this.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

I didn't say that. I'm not saying you said, I just said I observed, but no, and I said, I said, I observed that it was hard for you to grieve. And I and I'm look seeing it this way and thinking it probably even grieving is anxiety provoking.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Yeah, I would say it's you're just trapped. Grief might be something that would be really good, but you're sort of like vibrating, like you know what I mean? Yeah. Like in Inside Out 2, when they introduced that like anxiety character. Yes, yes, and like all the other emotions are screaming, and they're just like hands on the controls, and it's just like yes, yes. You're sort of like in that, like you grabbed live.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Or you didn't love that movie.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

You grabbed it.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

But you were like, that was a little too real.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

But like it's like you grabbed live wires, and you're like, uh, and your brain is just over, it's flooded, and you're like, so just grieve, or like I know grief can be anxiety provoking. You're like, do you think that I can hear you right now? Right. Like, I can't hear you.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

I can't even hear me.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah, it's it is that like I'm choking to get breath. And then yeah, other people are like, Why don't you uh do this? And you're like, I can't even breathe. Right. So it it almost feels like yeah, it it feels so based to who you are. Like it feels like the very my very insides are stuck, you know, yeah, in those categories of like it's triggering everything inside of me. And like for again, most of the day, most days of the week, that just wears you down. I thought of a good analogy.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

We really need to jingle. I really want to jingle for your analogies, like uh and the video to like stop and it to be like jingle or analogy time with Doug. Ding.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Kind of like a Mr. Rogers sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Where do Mr.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Rogers?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, I know I know who Mr. Rogers is. I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Like when he like comes in and sits down and puts his shoes on.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Does it ever pause?

unknown 34:59

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

I was thinking like a little stop of like, and then it was a jingle. It's fine. Getting off topic. Continue. You thought of your analogy?

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I apologize. My analogy is a sports analogy.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Here we go. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

The worst. But I I thought about it like this. Um, okay, I'm gonna tell describe two basketball players, okay? Okay, because it's the NBA finals right now, or it's near the finals. I don't know if you know that.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Like all girls know, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

I do people care about basketball, anyways. Uh two basketball players. First basketball player, Shaquille O'Neal. Most people know Shaquille O'Neal.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

He's a massive human being.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

It's funny. I say that and I love basketball. Yeah, you can. I know, I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

On the Lakers, uh, Shaquille O'Neal, in my opinion, in his prime, he's 7'1, so seven feet, one inch tall, and he's 325 pounds. Like, that's a man in his prime, uh, very athletic. And if he, if he's like, I'm going to walk over there and you're in his way, I'm pretty sure you're gonna have a hard time getting that, right? You're not gonna be able to stop him. Yeah, another phenomenal basketball player is Steph Curry. Steph Curry is 6'2, he's about my height, one inch taller than me, and he's 185 pounds, right? So that's a big person. That's a tall person. Steph Curry is elite basketball player. If Steph Curry got matched up on Shaquille O'Neal down right below the basketball hoop, someone would say that's a mismatch, right? It's just a mismatch. Who Steph Curry is in the even though he's phenomenally skilled.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And that's not his game.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

And a great basketball player. And it's not his game. He's a three-point shooter. He he's not like a defender under the basketball, under the hoop. And then you have Shaquille O'Neal who's like backing back down, and you have Shaquille O'Neal's seven foot one, 325 foot pound frame coming towards you, and you're only 6'1. You're literally a foot shorter and like almost a hundred pounds lighter. Like, there's not much you're gonna be able to do to stop that, right? Someone would say, I that's a mismatch, and and Shaq's gonna score. Like he's just he's gonna destroy you. Right. You're gonna try to stop him, but uh, it's not gonna work. We saw it when we like when he was on when he played, like you would like get he would get in a position, you're like, Whoa, that person's screwed. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Right, and that's what I feel like they Hackashacked him because that was the only thing they could do to stop him, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Right. They had they created a rule for Shaq that was specifically created because what they did to him. Yes, they they would the foul him so much in the fourth quarter because you couldn't stop. Right. But that's what I'm saying. That to me is the perfect analogy of sometimes if you're an anxious person who's working to manage their history and what's happened to them, your nervous system is a little bit more tuned to be anxious. You just have that anxiety of being a person, and then infertility comes in. That's like Shaq just walked in and you're like, crap. Uh like this is a mismatch 100%. You know what I mean? Right. Like, I like I I don't know what else to say besides that's a mismatch. I don't like someone could say, Okay, let's let's let's show you how to handle this. You might be like, I don't know, I'm probably gonna get scored on right now. Like, I'm probably gonna get dunked on in the face. Right, you know, right in basketball, they like you say, like you got posterized. Is that you ever heard of that?

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

It's like you're on a poster because someone's gonna put you on a poster because the person just dunked over your face and you're like and you just got destroyed. Like I kind of felt like that when we got some of those initial tests back about fertility. I was just like, I'm about to get dunked on so hard right now. Right. And there's nothing I can do about it. Like I knew there was nothing I can do about it, and it totally sucked and it really hurt. And I think that's my analogy. It's just yeah, like because I and I'm like realized that we are like in the mental health space, and maybe that's bad advice. Like, maybe that's a hard thing to hear of like, oh, so if you're telling me I'm an anxious person, that infantility is gonna is I'm screwed. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying for me, that's what it felt like though.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Was that like I'm gonna talk about what can we do better?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Kind of felt like I'm about to get dunked on. And and it's possible that you're gonna get dunked on if you're if if you're an anxious person, like and if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably like, yeah, right, right. I've already been dunked on. Like I know I already got like elbowed to the head. I know what's like I feel it already. Right. But that's what it felt like to me. It was like, as an anxious person, I just felt like it was a mismatch. Like, well, this is a mismatch. Yeah. It's about to mess me up.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

I feel like living with you in our growing of our family season, which was probably nine years long. Yeah, 10 years long. It just was like I could just looking back now and looking back that you were literally like your anxiety was Shaquille O'Neal, just dumping on you. Yeah. It just didn't seem like you were very I said dunking, not dumping.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

So just want to clear that up.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Did I say dumping?

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I think you just said dumping.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

I don't think I watched, dunking, excuse me. Dunking on you. I think, I think for me, uh outside observer, you just didn't seem very grounded. It just didn't seem like a very like not already. Right, right, right. A very grounded experience, which is sad, which is totally sad. Like I mean that in like a compassionate way of not like a you weren't grounded. It's like I I feel like it's like that's what I experienced with you. It's almost like a little bit like you are not there.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

It's like you are, you have that screaming voice in your head. So almost for me to like, you know what I mean? It's like I would almost have to scream.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

To get you to, not that you were like absent or something, because I felt very, I felt very like we were in it together. And I think it's like anxiety, anxiety is some mess. I was an absolute mess. I don't know if I could even like I look back like I was telling you to grieve and like whatever, but it's like I was a mess, I was an absolute shit show. Like I was, I was only self-consumed by grief. Like you went anxious, I went grief. Like I went like self-pity and like my world sucks or whatever. Like I I I paint myself. Like I was like, I was like the grieving mind, like in therapy, which I was, but I also am like, I was such a I was such a shit show, just in a completely different way.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah. And like with all mental health stuff, it's sometimes it's most of the day, most days of the week, which means that there were times where I was not anxious. Exactly. There's times where we were like, I don't know, like go to the beach or just go to the movies, just whatever. There was normal life in there. Right. But I if I were to look back, I would say, yeah, like probably like three or four days this week. And on those days, like most of the day, I was really anxious. Yeah. So it just like wears you down over time. Yeah. And you feel helpless. You feel like, how do I get out of this? And all this stuff of like grieve, do this, do this, do this. You just feel like I'm like locked up. I'm locked up, like I'm hands-on live wires.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Like, so this is very apropos, uniquely to which only we can do. Um, is how does that feel then to think back of like something that you struggle with is anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

And during our infertility journey, that was like poked and prodded and screaming at you.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

And gave you so many opportunities to be more anxious. Um, how does that feel looking back? And then how does it feel now? Like, what does that feel like to look back?

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah. Say something. You're telling me be emotional, is what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Say something emotional, Jack.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

On the infertility feelings podcast, be have some feelings.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Have some feelings.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Well, first thing I'll say is that I do think that that is a problem when you are anxious. It's hard to let other feelings in. So you don't really feel feelings. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're just anxious. Like sadness and grief and all those things are right there. Like, do you want to feel me? And you're like, I can't feel anything. I'm just worried about, I'm just thinking about the future. So I think really it's only like when you're not, when you come out of that anxiety that you can go, oh, I think I am feeling these other things. I think I am, do have a lot of grief. I do have a lot of pain and sadness. And all and I think that it bubbles up after the anxiety. I think looking back, I think I feel so um sad. I guess. Sad. I think I would just feel sad that I felt so preoccupied, you know, just like um Would you say anxiety makes you preoccupied? Yeah, mentally preoccupied. In the moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

You're somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Or you have a loud voice screaming at you.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

It's like you're just I don't mean literally. You just are Are not there, you know? Almost I pity. I think I feel pity. If that's a good word, I don't know. I think I feel pity on myself. Like I want other people to feel sorry for me. If that's I know that sounds weird. Yeah. Because in some ways I'm like, no, I don't want you to feel sorry for me, but I do want to be seen. I think probably what it is. Yeah. I want to be seen on how I was gonna say in many how anxious I was and how difficult it is to just be on that electricity for that long, you know? I want because you don't people you feel like don't people don't see it when you're in it. You feel like people don't see you being anxious.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

And I don't think every night we were going to bed you were thinking, I'm really worried about the future. I think it came out in little ways. Yeah. It came out in little, like, oh, I just looked this up for three and a half hours. Oh, I just whatever. Oh, I'm kinda like I'm kind of sleepy. You say, I'm kind of sleepy. I'm kind of, oh man, I had a hard time focusing at work. It's like, it's not necessarily like every night it was like, I'm really worried that we were not gonna have biological children. You know what I mean? It comes out in like the ethos.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah, like I feel tender towards myself. And like I want someone to sort of just hold me and be like, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. Because I feel tender of how scared I was about everything, about the future, about family. Will we have kids? What will that look like? Will we be okay? I just felt so afraid that I feel tender towards myself then, and even, yeah, anytime if any anyone who's an anxious person, they sometimes can come across as anxiety provoking because they're anxious. And almost sometimes like, oh my gosh, you're so anxious, like calm down. But really, it's they need so much tenderness because they're so locked up. Yes, they're afraid, but it's also it's a more electric kind of fear. It's it's it's not like oh I'm afraid of that. It's like an electric kind of frozen, and I just want to be so tender to that person and say, I get it. I totally get it. Like it's so hard to you can't put it down. You're just stuck in it. And you just want to sort of hug them, hug them, you know. Yeah, I think about like the even like the narrowing of the throat, you know, like someone sort of like struggling to catch their breath.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

You almost want to be like, what's wrong with you? So you just want to sit with them and just like hold their hands and breathe, you know? Right. That's what I feel like I want to do to my past self. Yeah, and I want to help with other people.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

I know, I know what I was gonna say. What's it like that those worries that you had, some of those came true? We could never have biological children. Like, what is that like? Like all those worries and all those things of like, what if? Like, don't let it be this thing. Yeah. And then one of those things happened. What's that like?

SPEAKER_01 46:43

So that's a weird thing about anxiety too, is it's not necessarily that attached to to reality. It's really the possibilities that give you anxiety, it's not the actual thing coming true. For me, I was like so terrified, what if we don't have kids? We never ended up being able to have children.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Biologic, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

But when that reality actually presented itself, I dealt with it. What was harder for me was knowing if that was gonna be a reality that I would have to accept or not. You know? It wasn't necessarily like it wasn't when you actually got the test back that said, Oh, we're not pregnant. It was like, oh, that hit me like a ton of bricks. But almost like the anxiety sort of released itself a little bit then, and I was able to grieve a little bit more. It's more like waiting to figure out what will happen, you know? And then it pretty soon after finding out you didn't get pregnant would would come like, oh, is it gonna happen again next time? So anxiety was always leading up to something. And I actually wanted freedom from that more than I wanted freedom from the bad news, you know? The bad news was like, oh, but it was news, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

It was something grounded, at least it was grounding, even though it was sucky grounding.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah, it was something, you know, it was something that you could do something with. It was leading up to it, is what felt like torture.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

I was the exact opposite. Like I was like out of sight, out of mind. We'll just get through it. Let's distract ourselves, let's have try to have fun, try to balance, try to whatever. Like we'll we'll deal with it on that day. We'll deal with it on that day. Yeah. And then that day came and I was like, I don't think I've ever felt worse about me, about my situation, about life. It's so funny. But yeah, I see what you mean. And I've never really thought about it that way. That it's it's the it is the unknown. So almost having the known, even if it's painful, even if it actually is the worst news that you could get, that is almost for you, maybe not everyone with anxiety. Yeah, but like struggles are just as an anxious person. It's like, but for you, that was like almost helpful because it could give you something of like, ah, now I don't have to almost worry if this is gonna come true or not. Now I can just be like it was it is true.

unknown 48:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

It's so funny. I would think that that would not be the case. Because of how much worry, how much effort you put in, maybe an effort's not the right word, but like how much time you spent worrying if that was gonna come true. I would think that that coming true would be the worst thing ever. But you're saying that for you and probably for others, not everybody, but for others, it's the in-between.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

I'd be interested to know what other people think. Maybe comment on this if you can, wherever you are. But like, is that if you're an anxious person, maybe we'll put it on Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

If you're an anxious person, is that how you are too? That's how I am. Like the bad news is like, okay, something happened and now I can embrace it. What would get me is like pretty quickly after that bad news thing would happen, I would get I would get anxious about something else. But for me, the actual bad things they hurt, of course, but they weren't anxiety provoking. They just hurt. It was like, oh, that sucks.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Probably in a in a way that sucks so much.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

That hurts so much.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Probably in a way, anxiety, it sounds like makes you not be able to grieve sometimes. So almost having something tangible that you're like, ah, now a reprieve. And I can actually grieve instead of just in the what if circle or in the what if hamster wheel. Yeah. Like it almost takes you out of the hamster wheel to be able to look at something. It's funny. I never thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Yeah. It's like uh, it's it's just it's like I go back to that basketball, it's just a mismatch. Like, once you actually do get dunked on and you're like, oh, you're like, okay, well, I knew that was gonna happen. But like sort of trying to defend against that is like, oh no, I'm trying to my hardest I can. I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't think it's then it happens, and you're like, oh frick, that sucked. And that hurts really bad. But it's really the leading up to it. Maybe other people are not. I would love I'm not saying that the bad things didn't hurt and they weren't horrible, but they didn't they didn't necessarily always make me more anxious. It was when I was looking out towards the future. Sometimes something bad would happen and they would make me more anxious. I would be like, Well, that's not a good sign. Yes, you know, like a test result would come back and be like, Oh crap, that means this, this. Right. But like real, like a really big grief sometimes would actually take me out of anxiety because it would be something I could grieve.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Yeah, you know, tangible, and and there's no what if anymore. It's the reality of like that, yeah. Yeah, it's the real it's the what if is gone. It's like you cannot have biological children. It's like ah, yeah. Okay, yeah, there's no what-ifs in it anymore. Right. You know what I mean? And for us, we couldn't afford to keep doing it. So it was like very black and white to be like, nope, right, we can't do this anymore. Right, you know? So that's funny. I never thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

So, Doug Anxiety sucks.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Is there any hope? Yes, just kidding, just kidding. I was gonna say one thing of like, what is the hope? Because I know that this is something that actually you deal with it still to this day. You just had some health issues come up. He's 100% fine. But I think those health issues.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

I had health anxiety, not really health issues, health anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Correction. Wasn't sure how much you wanted to say about it. Health anxiety. And you even said that it flashed you back to some infertility stuff. Um, so this is not something that, like, I don't want to just sound like this is something that you don't deal with now.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Oh, I'm not anxious anymore at all. I've just I've nailed it. Gang got it.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Gang gang, done.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

No, no, very much still part of my reality.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Right, right. And something that you work on and that you can have kind of episodes, I would say. Would you do you like the word episodes?

SPEAKER_01 52:17

I would say sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's better.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Yeah. But something like health anxiety, health anxiety, you have a little bit of health anxiety. Actually, you have health anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Thank you, Jesse. Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

I would say that. Um, that you have health anxiety, and now with like some a few like little medical things that have come up, it's like I can see that it comes kind of rushing back.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

So, like, what do you do to help that? What is the hope? Is there hope?

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Straight back to my basketball analogy, okay? Go with me on this. I thought about this too as well. Shaquille O'Neal is coming at you. He's backing down. You're just, it's a mismatch. The what's the only you know a little bit about basketball, Jesse. Yes, I think. What's the only thing Massive Lakers fan? What's the only thing that you can do in that situation? You're not gonna, you're not gonna beat the mismatch. Like you're just not. Like Steph Curry is not gonna stop Shaquille O'Neal in his prime.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Either run or get out of the way.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

No. You you were playing a game. You can't just get out of the way. What are you gonna do? What's the only thing to do to stop that?

SPEAKER_00 53:22

No, get out of the way.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Think about it. What do you do with a really good player? How do you guard them?

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Defend.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Yes. You how do you stop someone? What'd they do to Kobe Bryant all the time? And Michael Jordan? No. You if you have someone who's like unstoppable, you have to do what you have to do what? You have to do what? You got this.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Run away into the audience and observe the game.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

How do you stop them?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

You beat them at their own game.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

No. You get maybe what? Angry, maybe another person and you double team.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

We got there. Now I get the Kobe Bryant reference. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

You have the only way to defend someone like that, you have to double team them. And it works. It actually works. Right. So you don't just leave Steph Curry on Shaquille O'Neal. You crash someone into Shaquille O'Neal. Now two people are guarding Shaquille O'Neal. He's not gonna make it. He can't score. Well, maybe Shaquille O'Neal.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

I don't know if that's 100% guaranteed that that's well then you triple team.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

You you put you just keep adding more people to him, and then he has to pass because you can't score on three people. Right. You can't, that's in part, like that makes it so much more difficult. I just think the same is true for my anxiety. Sometimes I just get a mismatch and I'm like, this thing is gonna destroy me. I have to double team, I have to bring in more people. It's so counterintuitive because I'm like locked. It's so counterintuitive. I'm so locked up and I'm trying to figure stuff out. But there is this little tiny voice. It's quiet, it's in the background, and most of the time I do not believe it. But that little tiny voice is yelling at me, you got to get more people. Get more, get another person in here quick. Get another person in this.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

What is the men in black? Get a decorator in here because damn.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

It's just like I have to get someone in quick because my brain will ruminate. And ruminating does not help me solve any problems.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

What did Brendan say on that one podcast?

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, Dr. Brendan Peterson said our mind is not a good thinking machine when it ruminates. It's sort of, it doesn't, it's not good at solving those kind of problems through rumination.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

I would I think he said our brain is not good at solving problems by itself, especially mental health problems.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

And especially in that anxious place. I need to co-regulate. So I need to bring my anxieties to someone who's not as anxious and talk to them and look at their face and try to trust their regulatory system, not mine. It's so counterintuitive. But I have to then come to you and say, here's what I'm kind of stressed about. Here's what I'm thinking about. It will be long. I will talk for a very long time. It will be about things that you probably don't care about. You'll be like, You are worried about this? You can't say that to me out loud. But I've learned what I do. You will think like you are literally thinking about what your life is gonna be like as a 68-year-old. Like, there will be things that you're like, how could you ever think about that? But I have to give them to you. And then I have to look at your face and say, How is she managing? How is her nervous system managing this information? And then I go, okay, I'm gonna trust that nervous system. I'm never, I never do it perfectly. I never do it first try, but a little bit, I can a little bit trust, like, okay, you didn't freak out that we won't have kids, and that means what will happen to us when we're older. That will be a good idea. You seem to be okay with that. So I'm gonna trust that maybe I can be okay with that a little bit. Like I have to use your body and your nervous system to regulate mine. So that's a double team. Like, you gotta get another person in. You don't have to. That's what's helped me. I don't want to be prescriptive and say that this will work for you every time. For me, though, it's totally worked. It's totally worked. That's how I've been able to quote unquote beat anxiety. I haven't beaten anxiety. I don't think you can beat anxiety. I think it's a natural part of what it is to be a human.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

And you have, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

I'm a little bit more geared that way, and there's stuff in my past that makes me more anxious.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

I don't know if I would say you've beaten it. I would say that you've gotten better with coping with it.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

I know, but I like to say I've beat anxiety. I want the t-shirt that says I beat anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

And then like it'll just be. And then like it crossed out and said, like, I'm trying to beat anxiety. Um I'm doing my best. But but to me, that has been just that's been the number one thing. So and it will, and I guess the biggest thing I would say is if that's even interesting to you, and you're like, but that sounds counterintuitive. I would just say, same. Like that. It it for me is totally counterintuitive. Like, what do you mean it's also like tell someone all this stuff and then trust their nervous system? Like, what does that even mean? Right. I would say, yeah, I know. Sound it it is does sound weird.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

And it sounds like, how would I do that? Yeah. For me, tangibly, it looks like saying everything I'm thinking about and then just sort of like looking at their face and being like, do those things worry you? And for them to just and like they'll talk 50% of the stuff they say, I'm like, well, you're just not thinking about it correctly. But then the other times I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe it's not maybe that's not as crazy. You know, maybe maybe that's not as maybe I can trust that things will be okay, you know. The last thing I'll say, and I'm not even suggesting doing this. Please don't actually please don't do this. But sometimes this will like make me laugh, and I go, and it's like an example of what I'm talking about, is I will have health anxiety about something, or I'll during infertility was about infertility anxiety. I will go on Reddit and look at how other people handle situations like this, and it cracks me up at how non-anxious these people are. I will look on Reddit. Like, like, okay, uh, someone's going in for a semen analysis.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

And I get, I like think about it and all this kind of stuff. I will go on Reddit and see how people respond to a semen analysis, and I'm like, what? There are people out there like this on earth. It's just shocking. You know what I mean? Someone will be like, oh yeah, I I did it and never checked my chart and I left the state and then whatever, I did it again. I'm like, well, you can be like that? What? I can't even think of a good example right now. But just there are these people, there are these people on Reddit that are just like ridiculous. And I and I'm not saying that like that heals everything. I think, but I that's a little bit what I'm saying is looking at someone else's regulatory system, how they handled it is like, oh, I'm being anxious. And my every system I have is saying freak out, freak out, freak out. Then you read about someone, what they've done, and you're like, how could they be like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Right, right. I was thinking when you got a colonoscopy.

unknown 1:00:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

You were like, buy the book, and then you went and you read Reddit, and people were like, oh, gang, gang, I did this, I had that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

And you were like, I yes. So I recently got a colonoscopy and I was freaking out about it. And I was like, I did everything to perfection. And then yeah, I went on Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Just to be vulnerable about your anxiety. It was that guy from Dawson's Creek that passed away from colon cancer.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Yeah, you want to get as real as possible. Someone like the young people have passed away from colon cancer. And my sweet aunt, who's still alive and wonderful, had stage four colon cancer when she was in her 40s. So all of a sudden I got really freaked out about it. And I got a colonoscopy scheduled really quick. I just was kind of freaking out about it. I was like, I probably have colon cancer.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

And after that, after I forget it's David Vanderbeek, I think is his name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Like he passed away. David Vanderbeek.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

And you were like, I don't know if I can be on social media anymore. Like it's like it's coming after you. It just like got me really spiraled.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Triggered me. And like that infertility did the same. So like it's the same kind of thing. Like it happened at the same time. So then I got a colonoscopy. I'm totally doing it. I'm totally okay. Everything is good. Everything's great. Everything's good. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Thank God.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Um, yeah. And uh uh, but like I was I was like, I'm so anxious about everything, and then I go on Reddit to look like, well, what do other people do? I did the like five days of like the perfect diet. People were like, Oh yeah, I was at the fair and like crushing like deep fried butter the night before. I'm like, what? What? And then they're like, Yeah, I got it, and I was still on the drugs, but then we drove down to the lake and I had like nine cooler's lights. I didn't wake up for a day. I was crazy. I'm like, how are these people?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

You were not condoning the that thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

I just think it like Reddit, especially. Like, I just look and I go, like, how could someone be so carefree? Right. And then I go, honestly, like that sounds amazing. Like to be that carefree. And then there's other people on Reddit who are like, like me. Yes. And I just think like, that's again, I'm not saying you should do that. I just I think it's just like there's a sliver in there of what I'm talking about of like that, like that co-regulating, like getting other people in, yeah, like double teaming the situation and being like, let's both attack this. And then I'm gonna look at you and go, wow, okay, so that's how you handled it. I clearly am being a little anxious here. I think I'm just gonna like embrace and trust that that I'm doing a good job, you know, and that it does bring some relief, and I feel like I can be less anxious. Then it lets in the grief and the pain and the sadness and even the the happiness and stuff. But that that multiple people in it really helps.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Right. I know it's funny. Now looking at that like Reddit thing, it's like probably more of an anxious person would go to other people to almost like justify, like not justify, but like almost like, oh, you're anxious. That feels good. But you're saying almost the opposite feels good.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

Yeah, who are these people in? Where it's like who are these people? I mean, they're like just living wild lives and I was like wild lives. Wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:38

Not because we are condoning that we should do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Three days past having a colonoscopy, and I was like, is it okay? I was like Googling, like, is it okay if I have like one glass, one glass of wine after three days? And these people are just like, Well, I want on a bachelor party the day of. I'm like, what? Yeah, I played played 18 holes of golf on the day of my colonoscopy. I'm like, how how?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Right what? Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

So I yeah, I'm it's funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Probably your your go-to would be almost to go calm your anxiety and get more reassurance of like, okay, you're anxious. Okay, this is what you did, and like almost go down the radar, but almost doing the opposite. Yeah, it kind of sounds like you're saying, like, I'm gonna do the counterintuitive.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

The opposite can happen too, though, where you can like go online and spiral downward. What I'm saying is though, getting the multiple perspectives in is like, oh, that's how you would handle the situation. And then trusting like that feels like, okay, I don't want to do that. I'm not gonna go do that.

unknown 1:04:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

But it does make me think, okay, maybe where I'm standing is a little anxious, and I and I feel locked up by my anxiety, and I'm gonna trust that I can relax a little bit, or I can just trust that like I can loosen my grip just a little bit. Yeah. To let some of the other emotions in.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Right. So how do we close this?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

The same way we started it, Jesse. Together.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:04

Together. Well, you go and get on your private plane. That's that's how we end it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yes. Yeah, I gotta get back to my hotel. Yeah. Um, you know, no, I hope that this conversation's helpful. If you're a fellow anxious person, I love you, I care for you. And I think what what I'm advocating for is just more support, you know? It's not crazy, it's not bad to get more support. That double team, like to help with these things that makes it make us anxious. I remember that was like for me, it's happened lots in my life. Infertility is probably the biggest one. It happened in school all the time, you know? Like I couldn't certain classes would make me really anxious. Certain subjects I would get in my head about and be like, I am not going to pass this. And then I'm in trouble. And like, you know, when I was younger, like in high school and stuff like that. So I needed help. It's it's okay to bring in people.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Shame in that to ask for help.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:59

No, I think that's. The hard part is like bringing someone in. Yeah, you think I just gotta make it through on my own, but the peep sometimes we have to double team certain things, you know, like in basketball. That's a normal thing when something is overwhelming and you add more people to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:13

Um, what's the Harry Potter like uh uh story in the end when they're like fighting Voldemort and they're like walking up and he's like, Do you like need any help over here? And they're like, I think we got it, and they look out, and there's just like thousands of curses coming at them, and they're hitting that shield. Yes. And the guy goes, Uh, now that I think about it, you might want to tell Dumbledore to send one or two wands over here. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

Like it's Professor McGonagall, but it's okay. That's what the line is. He says, Tell Professor McGonor.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Oh, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore is dead at that point.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

Yeah. I was like, wait, caveat. Dumbledore is in a little island in the ground. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Sorry, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Tell Professor Professor McGonagall we need a one or two more wands this side. That's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

That's impressive that you had that. But I mean, it's like a reality of life. Sometimes there's things coming at us that we're like, might need to add a few more people here. Right. And that co-regulation, that trusting other people is amazing. I think this. This is my final thought. Online, on Instagram, sometimes people talk about anxiety and stress. And the solution to that anxiety and stress is like, let's lower your cortisol, let's take some deep breaths. Those are all wonderful things. Lowering your cortisol, amazing. Taking some deep breaths, amazing. The type of anxiety I had, the fear and the dizziness of the future, the way that my body is just tuned sometimes to be anxious, the unique pains of our past. There's no lowering of the cortisol and deep breaths that just make that go away. We need help. We need support. So I think yes, at times it is like a deep breath and like calming yourself down and you know, like getting into a place of calm. But that doesn't stop the mind sometimes. You know, that can maybe calm the body, but we need other people to help us process in those spaces. That's normal. That's totally normal to be that, to need that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

Right. I think the hardest part is it's counterintuitive. It's the thing that your anxiety says not to do. Like even in NSATO has been a really long time since I've seen it. But it's like, isn't it like she kind of like does it herself or like brings like one person?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:34

Anxiety, the character anxiety andxiety takes the controls and says, like, I don't trust anyone else to do this. And then and then she goes into a tornado and you can't get in.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

And finally, so that would be so counterintuitive to tap on her shoulder and be like, use joy, use sadness, use whatever. It's like it'd be so counterintuitive to solving the problem. But isn't it that at the end they all put their hands on and they actually do join her and then it stops?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Yeah. Genius. Yeah, you have to let those other emotions in. And what I'm saying, what maybe doesn't, I don't know if this actually happens in Inside Out 2. We should rewatch it. Right. Is I don't think that you can get there very easily just by yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

Like in Inside Out 2, those are all different characters in her head, but in our own selves, it's just us in there. Right. Right. It's not as easy. There's, we're not as like differentiated like that in our heads. Yeah. Yeah. It we're just, it's just one experience. I think we actually need another person to come and literally say, tell me what's, tell me everything you're thinking about. Right. Like, okay, we'll get a cup of coffee because what you're allowed to say. And then slowly, by you know, piece by piece going, like, okay, I see that. I see how you would feel that way. That you know, and like trusting that other person to like hold that and and sit in that with you is so it's it's nor I just say it's normal. Like we need that. Yeah, yeah. We need that in our lives. Yeah. People who are anxious need that. You know, yeah. And it's okay to need that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

I could see that if you were an if if you were in a partnership and you were both anxious, that that would be difficult. Yeah. Maybe to do. Like eat like hard. You may have to like, I don't know, really be like, what do you need when you're telling the other partner? You know what I mean? What you need or whatever. Yeah. Or maybe go to a friend or something or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

And it's there's like no light switches. It's not just like, oh, just go do that. Oh, did it perfectly. It's something you try out.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

Yeah, it's a something you try out, you know, like a like a nice pair, a pair of pants you're looking for. Right. And you just start trying on pants, you know? And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So you try a pair of pants. Have you ever tried a pair of pants on and just go immediately? Like, nope.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

I think every day after I graduated high school until this point, that was not leggings. What is um, I think it's um um that's a crazy experience. Elson John is like, I will never wear denim again. And I'm like, Gene? No, I think he says I'll never wear gene again.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

I'm like, it's a crazy experience. Sometimes you can, you're like the pants aren't even on yet, and you're like, these don't work. You just know they don't work, you know. No, and I think people are like that, and like and practices are like that. If you're an anxious person, you you try something out and you're like, no, no, this isn't working. And then, but then sometimes you do talk to someone and you're like, actually telling them all my anxious thoughts did feel really good. Right. You know, like you put sometimes you put a pair of hands on, you're like, I think these could actually work. And I feel like it's like that's a weird connection. Yeah, but I just think it's that idea of trying stuff on. And sometimes certain people don't work, sometimes certain people do work. Yeah, sometimes you don't know why. Sometimes it's like a it's a driving and talking, it's a dinner, it's a walking and talking. It's sometimes you just gotta try stuff out. Right. And some stuff works, some stuff doesn't. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

But the fact is that you're trying. You're trying. I think that is that is if you were like, I don't know, like that is growth, like just to try it out. Try on those different pairs of pants. Like it's it might not work perfectly, but hopefully, like we say in our groups all the time, when we identify what we need and then we can share with what with someone what we need, yeah, the chances of getting the need met goes up. It's not that it's a hundred percent true that you will get your if you identify and say, it's not gonna say that a hundred percent of the time you are gonna get your needs met. All it is is that the chance of getting your needs met goes up.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Yeah, it's like at bat. Statistics I don't know why I'm all sporting analogies today.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

We gotta get you into like watching more Broadway show, Broadway.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

I mean, I know something that is uh it's uh it's it's another audition.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

Yours is always sports warships. That's always your analogies.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

It's another audition, right? Like if you're going on auditions to make a choir, like if you don't, if you stop going to auditions, the chances of you making a choir go down.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

But if you keep going to auditions, like if you keep trying, if you keep singing in front of people. Hey, the last podcast I used uh like a singing example. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

There you go. It's it reminds me of my favorite quote of all time.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

You miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take. Wayne Gretzky sports analogy.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

You're telling me now you're gonna use a sports analogy.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Just saying. I'm just saying. But it's true. It's true. It just the chances of your need getting met go up. Because I think sometimes it sounds so like simple, like we we make it sound sometimes like so simple, like just identify what you need and try it out and then it'll work. And it's like, no, it doesn't always work. That's the complicatedness of human beings. Because you're talking to someone else that has maybe their own anxieties, their own ways they connect to people, or their own ways they've never learned how to meet someone's need before. Yeah. But the chances just go up. The more we try, the more we practice, the more we do, the chances just go up to getting your need met.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

Like I think if someone who's feeling anxious, who isn't a more anxious person, were that was to what they if they highlighted someone that they love and like and thought they could do this with, if they said, I'm gonna tell you just some of my anxious thoughts, I just want you to, I just want you to hold them, just hear them. Yeah. And I just wonder what that would feel like. It might feel good. Yeah. It might feel good. That that that person might be able to feel like, wow, okay, you're holding them. How are you responding to them?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:12

It's so funny because I'm I am the opposite of you. I will, I, I, I would be watching their reaction and try to if I was in a really I I've totally had anxiety-provoking situations happen in my life. It's funny. I would almost want them to tell me that they have felt that way too, to normalize that I like I would maybe be using them to co-regulate. We do that by on accident. We don't even realize we're doing it. Yeah. But maybe I would be using them a little bit to like co-regulate, like, oh, they didn't think that was a big deal. I'm thinking that's a big deal, like something like that. But I more would want someone to be like, I know same. When I have experienced anxiety, I feel the same way. I think that would give me relief.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

Because I would be like, oh, thank God I'm not the only one, which is what we do in our groups all the time. Of like, that's what we're literally doing in our groups to like put people in this in a similar spot for me to be like, hashtag me to like hashtag same. You know what I mean? Like I have felt that way too. So that's what I I would want to do to tell someone is I almost would want to, yes, use them as to co-regulate a little bit, but more like, are you the same? Do you feel this way too? You know. And almost normalize that everyone, not everyone, maybe is as is a born and anxious person or whatever, but it's like that I I would, I think I would just want some reassurance that I wasn't the only one.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

I just want to say thank you for having me. Um, it's been a wonderful time on this podcast. I'll be back in time. Uh loved visiting with you, and uh thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

You are welcome. Thanks for being here. Oh my gosh, I almost went like this to take off the headphones. We don't have the headphones anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:01

This podcast is put on by the nonprofit Uniquely Knitted. If you ever want to learn more about Uniquely Knitted, you can go to our show notes and click the link there. You can find out about the groups that we run. You can find out about sponsoring this podcast and becoming part of our monthly donor community. You can figure out all the other episodes we have, the blog post, and all the things that we're doing for people who are suffering from infertility. Thank you for listening and have a good night and good luck.